How Centurion dominated and affected the designs of tanks

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oldbutnotwise RE:How Centurion dominated and affected the designs of tanks 5/4/2005 9:19:16 AM

must disagree a bit with the IS2 these were fitted with a 122 artiliary piece, one that was a poor anti tank weapon its performance was pretty similar to the 90mm gin fitted to US tank destroyers etc. it was inefior to the 17pndr fitted to both the comet and the centurion or the 88mm fitted to the king tigers (both these are judges to be about equal). late in 45 the best gun to have n your tank was the 17pnd with tungsten shells ( the germans had designed similar ammo but due to lack of raw materials could not afford to use up valueabole tungsten on tank ammo). as for reliablity by the 44 the Us were using shermans which had a excelent reliabilty record (even the russian guards regiments who recived them were please with this aspect) the british had churchills (whose problems had been sort by this time) the comets were fitted with the meteor (merlin) engine an engin that proved to be one of the best tank engines of its era. a point of note is that both the comet and the centurion were design to perform "off road" in that its max off road speed was only 4mph slower than its road speed

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Librarian RE:How Centurion dominated and affected the designs of tanks 5/4/2005 2:39:01 PM

The reliability issue I was referring to involved the Conqueror and the M103, both of which suffered from engine problems. Also, weren't there problems with Meteor engines? At the very least, the Centurion suffered from insufficient range. The Centurion has a very good reputation for all-terrain mobility, (i.e. getting from A to B no matter what the terrain). I seem to recall comments about how good it was in the mountains of Korea. While it wasn't fast, it could handle rough terrain with relative ease.

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shawn RE:How Centurion dominated and affected the designs of tanks 5/5/2005 8:03:34 AM

The Conqueror used that same Meteor engine that was used in the Cromwell, Comet and Centurion. The problem was that it was overstressed for the Conqueror's weight. This was not uncommon in many heavy tank designs, such as the Tiger II. The M103's engine wasn't particularly great as well, but its main problems stemmed from its electrical system. A total shift to diesel engines for AFVs did not occur in Western armies until the early 1960s. For example, the M48A3, with a diesel engine, was first introduced in 1959.

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RetiredCdnTanker RE:How Centurion dominated and affected the designs of tanks 5/5/2005 10:57:42 AM

The Centurion was the my first tank, but I never really looked at it as a breakthrough design. So, I went out and had a good hard look at one that is being used as a monument. Of course, the obvious was there, the well sloped armour, the well designed suspension and so on. However, I think that the Centurion made its mark because, for once, the designers incorporated a huge amount of over-engineering. The turret ring, for example, was much larger than a Sherman, and much larger than the 17 pounder required. The suspension as well, was much more robust than was required. This foresight by the engineers allowed the Centurion to gain over fifteen tons of weight from the earlier marks to the latest marks, and also allowed for two changes to the calibre of the main gun, from 17 pounder to 20 pounder to 105mm. The robustness of the platform also allowed many support vehicles to be built on the same basic platform. Previously, most western tanks were designed with the bare minimum requirement. It was difficult to upgun the Sherman, for example, and the Firefly version had to incorporate a few compromises to allow the mounting of a similar calibre but much more powerful gun. So, while in many cases the Centurion seems to be evolutionary, in some ways, it was indeed revolutionary.

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oldbutnotwise RE:How Centurion dominated and affected the designs of tanks 5/6/2005 10:49:41 AM

one of the biggest problem of the centurion was politics, the tank itself was on the drawing board in 1940 but was rejected because of the rule at the time that all british tanks had to fit in a standard rail tunnel, the centurion didnt.

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shawn RE:How Centurion dominated and affected the designs of tanks 5/6/2005 11:43:05 AM

oldbutwise said: "One of the biggest problem of the centurion was politics, the tank itself was on the drawing board in 1940 but was rejected because of the rule at the time that all british tanks had to fit in a standard rail tunnel, the centurion didnt." ---- Where did you get this fact from? According to my references, the Centurion's design began in 1943 as a follow on to the Comet cruiser tank, with a design requirements of being 40 tons in weight and able to survie a hit from the Tiger I's 88mm gun. The Centurions lineage can be clearly seen by its hull, turret, suspension and road wheel design, which were further developments of the Comet, and the Cromwell before it. (although it did get rid of the Comet's vertical glacis plate, hull mg, and thin belly armour). Where it was limited to was in transport trailers, which at that time could just take 40 tons. However, because this weight requirement would still render it vunerable to the 88mm, the weight limit of the Centurion was increased to allow for thicker armour, and a new transport trailer was introduced. The tank that was limited to the width of narrow railway tunnels and tracks is the Japanese Type 61 90mm MBT of the early 1960s, which weighed about 34.5 tons and was 9 foot 8 inches wide. (and was often featured in the classic Godzilla movies - getting stomped, eaten, smashed, disintegrated...) link

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oldbutnotwise RE:How Centurion dominated and affected the designs of tanks 5/7/2005 9:47:03 AM

I agree that the actual work on the centurion satrted in 43 but the the design was on paper in 40(this might be a bit wishfull and it may have been late 41 early 42 I cannot now find the relavent article), whilst it saw many changes between this and the the first prototype the rough diemensions are there, including the turret ring size and the proposed improved Horstmann suspension, the piont i was making that the tank was delayed due to politics

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shawn British WW2 cruiser tank development 5/10/2005 1:32:49 PM

I had a look through one of my reference books, and I think I figured things through: In late 1940, there was a General Staff specification for a heavy cruiser tank - 25 tons with a 6 pounder to replace the Crusader. The tank was rushed into development, but was more of a 'product-improved' Crusader initially called the Cromwell, but then quickly changed to the Cavalier. This name change most likely resulted from the rapid realisation that a tank with the same problematic Liberty engine of the Crusader, but weighing 7-9 tons more, was nowhere worthy of the name of Old Ironsides, although the design in most respects was very similar to the eventual Cromwell. In 1941 The Cromwell/Centuar were designed. The Centaur initially using Liberty engines until the Meteor was available, then retrofitted to become Cromwells. Because of a reaction to the Cavalier, the Cromwell development program was taken slowly - so slowly that the first production models only emerged in January 1943. It was not so much politics that delayed the Cromwell, but overcaution that was a direct response to the earlier Cruiser tanks like the Crusader and A9, which were rushed into production to fast. The Cromwell was further delayed by the need to up-gun it to 75mm, and thus while entering service in early 1943, did not enter combat until D-Day in June 1944! The inability of the Cromwell's 75mm to deal with German tanks like the Tiger and Panther was soon recognised, and after the attempt to upgun the Cromwell with the 17 pounder resulted in the unsatisfactory Challenger, a new requirement issued in May 1943 resulted in the Comet, which had a modified 17 pounder gun, called the 77mm. The Comet was first delivered in December 1944. The Comet, while the best British tank of WW2, perpetuated some of the Cromwell's faults, in particular a vertical front hull glacis and hull gun. So a new heavy cruiser specification was issued in late 1943, which resulted in the Centurion - prototypes of which with a 17 pounder and 20mm Polsten cannon reached Germany too late to enter combat.

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