How Centurion dominated and affected the designs of tanks

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AussieEngineer RE:How Centurion dominated and affected the designs of tanks 4/26/2005 7:46:03 AM

It was really the first MBT I suppose.

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Librarian RE:How Centurion dominated and affected the designs of tanks 4/26/2005 4:01:08 PM

I would disagree on the "first". What about the Pershing? IS-2? Or for that matter the Panther and the Tiger? It was however, much more adaptable than the any of the others, though partly because it evolved under it's own name whereas the Pershing evolved into the Patton series. It did, however, bring together any number of lessons learned during WWII and did so in a decent package. However, the Pershing and the IS-2 suggest that other designers also were thinking along similar lines.

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Yimmy RE:How Centurion dominated and affected the designs of tanks 4/26/2005 6:14:38 PM

The Centurian was an evolution of the Cromwell and Comet.

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AlbanyRifles RE:How Centurion dominated and affected the designs of tanks 4/26/2005 11:09:45 PM

I would agree the M1 has more in common with the Centurion series than the Patton/M60 series....

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AussieEngineer RE:How Centurion dominated and affected the designs of tanks 4/26/2005 11:43:45 PM

You might be right about the Pershing I suppose, but I don't think panther, tiger or king tigers were really MBT. The closest to a MBT of those three would probably be the panther, but it was really a medium tank in a medium-heavy tank mix. Wheras a centurion was just as mobile as a medium tank and had the firepower and armour of a heavy tank. Honestly though, I don't know that much about Pershing or IS2, but I suspect that the IS2 was more of a heavy tank as apposed to a MBT.

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Yimmy RE:How Centurion dominated and affected the designs of tanks 4/27/2005 9:23:05 AM

I believe the IS-2 only weighed a bit over 40 tonnes.

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AussieEngineer RE:How Centurion dominated and affected the designs of tanks 4/28/2005 9:26:03 AM

I don't know enough about the IS2 to really talk about it but was it as mobile as the centurion?

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Librarian RE:How Centurion dominated and affected the designs of tanks 5/2/2005 2:20:48 PM

I have been doing a bit of reading, since my earlier post. The IS-2 was roughly equal to the Centurion in terms of armour and power-to-weight ratios. The initial armament was superior in the IS-2 (122mm gun). I suspect that the later 105mm Centurion gun would be about equal. One very important difference was that the IS-2 was classified as a heavy tank (the same as the Pershing was, though the latter was later qualified as a medium tank). I suspect that such a label would affect how the tank would fit into the military structure (force structure, tactics, procurement, etc.) The IS-2 also scared the Americans and the British into building their own heavy tanks (the M103 and the Conqueror) which were relative disasters. However, in design and concept, the IS-2 has any number of features which suggest the modern MBT to the casual observer. It lacked the longevity of the Centurion, however. I suspect this can be explained by the fact it's design did not sufficiently allow for improvements. This latter facet is one of the Centurion's hallmark having gone from the 17-pounder gun to the L7. This in and of itself might be one of the Centurion's influences, i.e. that in the lifetime of a tank's design, considerable changes will occur and if you build a design that will allow for that, your sales will be better. Alternatively, you could be cynical and say the Centurion was popular among many users because it had the best armour/price ratio of Western MBT's of it's era. Certainly, that seems to have been a consideration for Israel when it chose the Centurion over the AMX-30. ;-)

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shawn RE:How Centurion dominated and affected the designs of tanks 5/3/2005 1:13:33 PM

Errr... the IS-2 had a few flaws, one of which was its slow rate of fire, 2-3 rounds per minute (common on all further IS tanks). IS-3 was the tank which pioneered 'clamshell' armour, but: "suffered from many serious problems related to design flaws. The most serious were: an unreliable engine, and extremely unreliable gear-box, and defective hull elements." link IS-4 to T-10 tanks: link I believe that the IS-3 and T-10 served in combat with Egypt and Syria, where the Israelis did not seem to have any significant problems dealing with them.

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Librarian RE:How Centurion dominated and affected the designs of tanks 5/3/2005 3:32:07 PM

I had not been aware of slow rate of fire and poor reliability of the IS-2. Doubtless that contributed to that line's poor reputation. However, that does not mean it and it's successors could have influenced other tank designs. In your interesting links, I was struck by the Western surprise at seeing the IS-3 at the Berlin victory parade. This could have lead Western designers to change their plans in favour of beefier tanks. As side note, many Western tanks of that era suffered from unreliable engines, including the Western responses to the IS-2 line.

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