poorest MBT ?

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fitz RE:Arjun is the winner ! 3/2/2005 6:27:19 PM

While I'd argue some finer points, Arjun AFAIK is still in the Beta stage. Doesn't really count if its still in development.

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Bluewings RE:Arjun is the winner ! 4/8/2005 3:07:31 PM

What about the Italian Ariete ? And the South.A Oliphant ?? Those two are good contenders for the poorest MBT ... Cheers .

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ret13f RE:AMX30 4/8/2005 11:19:11 PM

In the mid 80s a Spanish General got into trouble because he said there is no way they could compete in CAT competition with their AMX30s. Basically he said they were doo-doo.

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french stratege RE:AMX30 4/9/2005 12:09:06 PM

Considering that Spanish AMX30 were from earlier model and not updated with a modern firecontrol and ammunition , it doesn't suprised me they were obsolete in the mid 80ies.A M60 A1 would not have done better. However AMX302 outperformed Challenger 1 in NATO firing competition.

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fitz RE:AMX30 4/9/2005 10:19:46 PM

Everyone out-performed the Challenger in the (I believe it was 1987) Canadian Trophy shoot. So what? Even after upgrading them, the Spanish were quick to discard the AMX-30. As I said before, AMX-30 only sold to those countries that could not get Leopard's or M-60's and for good reason.

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french stratege RE:AMX30 4/9/2005 10:38:25 PM

Not for M60 (cf Saudis).It compare well to US M60A3 in its AMX30B2 version.SPanish discarded AMX30 after updating because end of cold war and their new Leopard 2 are enought.At the early time of AM30, Leopard 1 was better I agree, but AMX30 was not worse than M60A3: a little weaker armour but better FCS, and much better mobility and a btter profile and a surface area much smaller so reducing hit probability. AMX30 which has similar reliability problem of chieftain with its gearbox do not suffer of this problem is the B2 version where gearbox is new.If today France decide to update its AMX30B2 with a "magash7" like update kit with stonguer and reactive armor it would be still a potent first line tank.

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french stratege RE:AMX30 4/9/2005 10:46:35 PM

BTW its combat record was still pretty good against Irakis (more than 50 Irakis tank destroyed vs one loss).Spanish had also the choice with M60 at this time. AMX30 had an unique feature at this time (in seventies) which was the fact commander can also pre aim the gun so improving speed in multitargeting.A feature all modern tank like M1A2 or Leopard 2 have and which was introduced thank to this French innovation.More over its secondary armement was a 20 mm gun coaxial to main gun which can have +40 degree elevation to shoot helos or in urban area/mountain or ligh armor targets and infantery. Contrary to german and many armies a DU APFSDS round equiped French armies. To say it was not the worst tank of its time. Today it is obsolete as M60A3 or Leopard1.

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fitz RE:AMX30 4/10/2005 10:12:35 AM

Is it possible for you to just once drop your "if its French it must be good" national pride BS for just a minute and admit the AMX-30 was a dud? Saudi Arabia never even used theirs, most have stayed in depot their entire lives with only delivery mileage on them. They do use their M-60's and M-1's though. Spain upgraded hundreds of old M-47 and M-48 thanks yet saw fit to upgrade only half of its locally-produced and much younger AMX-30's. The M-48A56's were apparently a more popular posting for Spanish tank crews than the -30. The Spanish began to discard its AMX-30's as soon as surplus M-60's and new Centauro's became available even though the AMX-30's were quite young. Chile bought a few AMX-30's because nobody else would sell them tanks (same reason the Spanish got them). When it came time to get more tanks on the used market did they snap up the huge number of AMX-30's that were on the disposal list to standardize the fleet? No, they went for Leopard 1's. Greece dumped its AMX-30's into storage very early on too, having ordered them originally only after having been denied Leopard 1's (just like Spain). The Greek's thought so highly of them they retained even the M-48A3 in service longer. They dumped some of the -30's on Cyprus. The armor is thin, the engine poor, the transmission horrible, the suspension has half the travel of a Leopard 1 giving poor cross-country mobility. It's a turd. Sorry. PS And no, the 20mm gun is not an advantage.

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french stratege RE:AMX30 4/10/2005 10:35:56 AM

"The armor is thin, the engine poor, the transmission horrible, the suspension has half the travel of a Leopard 1 giving poor cross-country mobility. " True but firepower was one of the best.And mobility much better than a M60 or a chieftain which had the same defaults , with a 21 Hp/ton for AMX30.All these defaults were corrected in AMX30B2.Not the best tank which was Leopard 1 but not the worst.I'm not blinded by national pride but I think you forgot what was its competitors at this time: Chieftain, Leopard 1, M60, T62 and T64. And frankly I think that M60, Chieftain and T62 were worst.

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french stratege RE:poorest MBT ? 4/10/2005 10:37:20 AM

And saudi AMX30 were first generation.Not the B2. And its reliability and incompetence of Saudi explain that.

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