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Subject: Can anyone explain to me how we know if we won?
Star    8/25/2005 6:43:23 AM
When the US invaded Panama in 1989, we had some pretty clear objectives... and I could tell when we won. When the US fought Iraq in the 1991 Gulf War, we had some pretty clear objectives... and I could tell when we won. I supported the invasio of Iraq a couple of years ago (still do support the invasion... not because of whether he had weapons of mass destruction, but because I believe he was just too bad of a guy to allow to lead a country... If the Iraqis did not have the means to protect themselves from that guy and his thug army, then I am very comfortable with us going in and doing it). I have a problem with the occupation tho... People ask "who is winning", and my response is "how can we know?" We don't know what we are trying to accomplish specifically to know the day that we have it accomplished. Things like "We win when Iraq can stand on its own" do not mean too much to me... honestly. What day is that? How many troops do they have to have for that to happen? What can I watch for to know "this is the objective, and on the day that happens, we will have accomplished our mission." I am a veteran, and so perhaps my views are skewed... but I work in lines (if I am supposed to move you across a line, I do it... if I am supposed to stop you from crossing a line, I do that... that is how I "accomplish my mission"). Let the politicians talk in rhetorical doublespeak... can someone just tell me "this is how we know when we have won". I worry that we are thinking the answer is "when we have defeated the terrorists"... wow, that would mean an occupation of decades. Or "it is when we get the terrorists out of Iraq", but that sounds a lot like "get the communists out of South Vietnam"... we could go anywhere in Vietnam and win battles, but it is another matter to clear out all the enemy from an entire country (a fool's quest). The invasion was "remove Saddam from power"... that mission is accomplished (it has been for a while). We won the invasion. Now the occupation... some might say "when they have a Constitution that is approved by the people and there is a new government in place. If the Iraqis put in a theocratic government aligned with Iran, have we really "won"? If that is the case, then this was fool's bargain... and I want my money back. Please understand: I am about as far from an Anti-American as you will find... but, I am just really struggling with this one. William
 
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PowerPointRanger    A fair question   9/25/2005 3:15:55 PM
Let's face it, this is not a traditional war. Who's winning will not be measured in a traditional way (territory catured or body counts). This is a war of idealogy. It can be won in two ways: 1) Military occupation of the country the represents that ideology (Iran) 2) containment of that country. Option 1 does not seem to be in the cards. We have our hands full in Iraq & no one else seems willing/able to do it. Since option 2 seems to be the plan, installing democratic regimes in Iraq & Afghanistan becomes essential. This will have the same effect as West Berlin had on East Europe, destabilizing the despots in the area. The bad news is that there is no telling how long it will take. Could we sustain our military campaign for another 2-5 years at the current pace? Militarily, yes. Politically, is another matter. So far we've sustained support through 2 elections (2002 & 2004). My sense of it is that tenuous support will continue. It seems every time our support starts to waiver, the terrorists do what terrorist do & remind us what we're up against. The terrorists can't not be terrorists. It's what they are & what they do. It's how tyrants in the region get & hold power, by instilling fear. We've seen that the Iraqi & Afghan people are no longer afraid. Nor are the US & UK. That's bad news for the bad guys.
 
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