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Murphy's Law in Action Discussion Board
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Subject: Fatal Flaw Of The F-22
SYSOP    10/2/2008 4:56:08 AM
 
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cwDeici       10/2/2008 10:57:39 AM
This isn't a flaw, it is a state of finite resources.
 
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justbill       10/2/2008 11:24:47 AM
What a questionable scenario. Why in the world would we send a mere half dozen Raptors to stem the Chinese hordes? We'd commit every available F-22 in service, as well as F-15's and F-16's. I'm sure the Navy would like to get involved as well. And let's not forget the Taiwanese AF. In short, there would be a lot more friendlies than just a handful of Raptors.
 
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aki009    Valley of Death...   10/2/2008 11:50:29 AM
6 against 72 would be the aerial version of the Valley of Death... Has happened before, and will happen again for sure.
 
An upside is that the Chinese combine Russian license produced equipment with Chinese maintenance. Merging the worst of both worlds means that a good percentage of aircraft will be unavailable at any given time. Thus three regiments would likely mean  50 or so threats incoming, not 72.
  

 
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FJV       10/2/2008 12:55:27 PM
So tanker planes need escorts to protect them.
 
Seems like a sensible thing to do.
 

 

 
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Vulture       10/2/2008 2:22:39 PM
Just as AWACs always have a  combat squadron( flying cover for them, so would you for the tankers in an extended combat mission.  So did the scenarios cover the F-18s and their defense of the tankers?   Hell Taiwanese AWACs and their support might be sharing the airspace with those old tankers.
 
BTW I would have used the F-22 on targeting Chinese radar sites before throwing them into a massive dogfight.   Bad resource utilization for defending theTaiwanese Straits.
 

 
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WarNerd       10/2/2008 2:26:25 PM
&It;sarc on> Well it seems that the F-22 can not win IF outnumbered 12 to one and IF it must refuel before returning to base. <sarc off>
 
I'll bet that the F-22's did not have a single missile left between them and only a couple of rounds of ammo for the vulcans.  It was probably just one of a set of scenarios that could have been entitle "How many do we have to throw at them before they start to die?"
 
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Whispering_Death       10/2/2008 2:32:56 PM
Wait wait wait, you're telling me 6 unsupported Raptors can't defeat the entire PLAAF?
 
What a worthless fighter aircraft!
 
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Softwar    People v. Games   10/2/2008 2:47:02 PM
Of course, no one took into account what happens to the flights of Flankers when large numbers of them start to blow up.  Based on historical analysis of similar engagements - even with tough and well trained enemies - the Flankers are going to break formation and run for their lives.  They are not going to engage or try to break through the defenders to attack tankers - not knowing if there are more F-22s flying escort.  They are going to try and stay alive to fight another day - not be sent into the water in a ball of flame.
 
This sounds like a typical "wargame" scenario driven by guys sitting safely on the ground who never die and thus push headlong into high loss battles.  They KNOW the exact number of forces on both side and thus are able to make tactical decisions based on attrition rate tables - not based on what real pilots do.
 
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YelliChink       10/2/2008 5:08:16 PM
Did Kamikaze pilots run away in the face of onslaught by Corsairs and Hellcats?
 
 

 
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JFKY       10/2/2008 5:59:18 PM
Not the same thing is it?  Kamikaze's were on a one-way mission. SU-27's are not, they are a front-line, THE front-line PLAAF A/C why would they expend them in such a manner?  Kamikaze's were out-of-date A/C and/or inexperienced pilots, none of which applies to the SU-27 and its crew(s)...unless you know something about the PLAAF and its SU-27's.
 
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JFKY       10/2/2008 6:04:50 PM
It becomes a proportional game, doesn't it?  Is the loss of 3 SU-27 regiments worth the destruction of the tankers and therefore 6 F-22's?  Sure, IF those are the only F-22's in theatre or their destruction opens up a key time-space gap in the Taiwanese Air Defense Environment allowing amphibious/Desant/Missile/Air Strikes onto critical targets in Taiwan, otherwise it's a Pyrrhic victory or close to it.  So, the only way PLAAF command and its pilots pull the one-way mission stunt is if the elimination of these 6 fighters has a tremendous pay-out...otherwise in the face of 24-36 kills they'll break and run home, rather than suffer potential annihilation, much less 48 kills for the destruction of the tankers....IMO...
 
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Gerry       10/2/2008 7:35:57 PM
6 F-22 vs 72 Su-27s. US loss 6, China 24. Next battle, 6 F-22s, 24 Su 27s, next battle 6 F-22s, 24 Su-27s. Now the three regiments of Chinese top line fighters have been removed. 18 losses vs 72. OK who's next?  The US can do this with F-22s alone until China has (mathamatically ) lost 732 Su-27s. Now come the F-35s, F15s, F16s etc. etc. As ridiculess as the scenario is, the US would still be the overwhelming victor. And I believe my numbers game to be very conservative as the last of the Su-27s would fall faster. If I was the bravest Chinese pilot, I would think twice after losing 50 or 60 of my comrades so quickly to so few.
 
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coldoc       10/2/2008 11:35:26 PM
Why is only the F-22 affected by fuel shortage?  Do the SU-27s just levitate around without need of refueling or re-arming?  I suspect quite a few of them are using afterburner too to get away from the missiles.
 
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Rasputin       10/2/2008 11:51:31 PM

Not the same thing is it?  Kamikaze's were on a one-way mission. SU-27's are not, they are a front-line, THE front-line PLAAF A/C why would they expend them in such a manner?  Kamikaze's were out-of-date A/C and/or inexperienced pilots, none of which applies to the SU-27 and its crew(s)...unless you know something about the PLAAF and its SU-27's.

Well the PLAAF have only a small percentage of Su-27s vs the number of Mig 21 clones or worse vinatages that could be thrown out like kamakazi zeros.
 
It would be such a waste to shoot down those hordes soviet era commie jet using patriorts to shoot those birds down. But if the PLAAF can turn them into pilotless drones, they might be pretty dangerous as they would be supersonic kamikaze drones. 
 
So a very simple analysis is if you can sell the Taiwanese 6 F22s, they would tie down at least 72 SU-27s. Might as well sell them 2 dozen F 22s, then the NT airforce can account for 288 SU-27s. And if the NT can put escort fighters for their tankers and Awacs. That would give the United States Armed forces the most leisurely amount of cruise time to deploy themselves there, even accounting for delays from senate dramas.
 
The question is why doesn't the United States utilize its strength to sell Taiwan more mordern equipment that would not only result in savings for the US armed forces and help the US make some good defence $??? The last time the United States dithered about to flog their vaunted aircraft (I think it was the F18, cos no one would refuse the F15) , the French got in on the deal and managed to flog their Mirage 2000s and some other french stuff.  
 
Now that was the only time that defence procurement of Taiwan, not only angered the PRC but also the United States.
 
 
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Batou    Of course, bearing in mind   10/3/2008 6:31:02 AM
That some aspects of the american miltary is seemingly taught by hollywood, the IMMENSE propaganda value of  just 6 F-22's holding off a legion of bad commies cannot be underestimated. Using the article's "thirds" rule of fuel - IF 6 F-22 were to engage and destroy/scatter the enermy, and those 6 F-22's were lost on the return to base and all or most pilots rescued, they would be seen as Aviation version of Spartans (I can just see the pre-flight brief, "Pilots, tonight we dine in Hell").
It pays to remember that wars are sometimes won on information, scarifice and propaganda.
 
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