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Subject: Did Intelligence really fail in Iraq?
DaGunny    2/18/2005 5:16:27 PM
Regardless of what the press and liberals say, Intelligence did not fail in Iraq. The Intelligence community are not a Judge and Jury. Their job was to find INDICATIONS of Iraq possessing or trying to build WMD. I this mission they did their job. Whether there were the WMDs that we believed, or whether they were moved to another country prior to the war, such as Syria, is irrelevant. The indications were there and they did their job. Fact: Saddam used WMD when he gassed the Kurds. Fact: Saddam purchased precursor chemicals, (it really does not matter what they were really purchased for). Fact: Saddam violated a dozen UN resolutions for over 10 years. Fact: Saddam shot at coalition aircraft over 60 times. Fact: Saddam continuously went out of his way to make it look as though he did have WMD. If WMD was all a ruse by Saddam, well he lost that game of chicken. I liken Saddam and WMD to this. The police are called to a home where it is reported that the man that lives there is shooting a gun at people. A quick police check reveals that he has shot and murdered a man, years earlier. When the police arrive the man is standing on the porch pointing a gun at the police. They shoot and kill the man. Later they determine that the man had a fake gun. Who is at fault? Had he not pointed the fake gun at the police, he would still be alive. I think you get my point. Had Saddam complied with the UN sanctions and allowed free access to UN inspectors, he would still be in power.
 
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shek    RE:Did Intelligence really fail in Iraq?   3/23/2005 10:35:11 PM
I'd disagree. I think that our intelligence failed in Iraq. The CIA's job was to determine whether or not WMD were present, and their assessments based on the information collected was wrong. However, it is also clear that many other countries to include Arab states believed that Saddam had WMD, so the CIA was not alone.
 
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Lanton    RE:Did Intelligence really fail in Iraq?   6/30/2005 4:48:57 AM
The intelligence services were getting their look-in on Iraq from the same people, mainly the Iraqi exiles who were being egged on by the Iranians. The Iranians saw a clear oppurtunity to get rid of a troublesome neighbour and be in a position to dominate the political arena in a post-Saddam Iraq and the Iraqi exiles were looking for anyway to rid their homeland of a detestable and murderous character. Anyway, don't you think if the Israeli's believed, as the Americans did, that Saddam had possessed substantial stockpiles of WMD's, that they wouldn't have gone in and sorted things out long before the White House started strategic preperations for the Iraq War back in early 2001?
 
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PowerPointRanger    Intel: The Perfect Fall Guy   12/1/2005 11:58:20 PM
Basically, Intel is the perfect fall-guy for any situation because people rarely ever find out what Intel does. Often it is not the case that Intel screwed up so much as decision makers didn't listen. So for example, if Intel tells General Mac that 1 million Chinese soldiers have crossed the Yalu, and General Mac say, no they haven't, what happens when those million Chinese soldiers attack? General Mac says he got bad intel & no one is the wiser. So what happened in Iraq? Are we to believe Saddam's Iraq produced & used substantial amounts of WMD over the last 2 decades, leaving behind millions of pages of documentary evidence, thousands of dead, & small numbers of chemical warheads (including cyclosarin); yet there NEVER were WMD in Iraq. Are we to believe every intelligence agency in the world got it wrong and Saddam, who never told the truth before, was telling the truth this once? Or... Saddam used diplomacy to stall while he shipped his WMD into Syria right under our noses, but missed a few rounds. Come on, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what happened! Achems Razor! It's like the cop who stands outside the door with the search warrant in hand, waiting for someone to open up, while the folks inside are flushing their stash down the toilet. When the door finally opens & folks inside say, "There were never any drugs here." And the cop believes them! It wasn't bad info. It was a matter of not using it in a timely manner. Intel is highly perishable. We had 12 years to act. We waited twelve years and two months, which was two months too long.
 
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Carl S    RE:Intel: The Perfect Fall Guy   12/3/2005 8:53:43 AM
Intellegence agencys or departents respond to the desires of their leaders. Plus the commanders whom the agency serves can choose what intel they want to use. ie: In the spring of the 1940 French intellegence had data that could have indicated the move of the German tanks through the Ardennes. The French senior commanders choose to exclude that data from their primary analysis and focused on data concerning German abilities to attack elsewhere. The problem was not the intel service but the comanders view. There are many examples of this historically. My own take is the data on Iraq could have been used or interpreted differently depending on the motivation of the commander in chief.
 
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Carl S    RE:Intel: The Perfect Fall Guy   12/3/2005 8:58:00 AM
The fake gun anology mirrors a very similar police shooting incident here near my home. Some folks suggest Saddam wanted enough evidence to circulate to keep the iranians guessing. If they thought he still had a chemical & perhaps nuclear capability they'd be less likely to attack him again. If so then it is a another case of a overly complex double game backfiring.
 
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MattZone    RE:Did Intelligence really fail in Iraq?   12/3/2005 9:21:23 AM
It's also important to note how good Saddam was at spreading disinformation among his own people. He didn't have just one WMD program, he had several. Even if foreign intelligence agencies had gotten a line into one or more of these groups, all they would have said is "well, our group hasn't developed WMD's, but we've heard of one that has". And they would be telling the truth, because Saddam lied to everyone, including his own people.
 
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PARATROOP    RE:Did Intelligence really fail in Iraq?   6/15/2006 11:08:08 PM
Hmm...the INTELL agencies are dysfunctional all around both in the DOD and in the federal depts. they have made at least 2 new posts or agenciess and this wont solve the problem, the cia will ALWAYS be the poster boys for failure simply cuase what they represent, the pinnacle of Intelligence.They warned bush of 911, they doubted saddam's bio wpns program and bush used his power to find someone within the cia to add credibility to a FOREIGN INTELL agency claim. Let wartime intelligence be the chief job of the DOD, and geopolitical (etc) intelligence be that of the CIA. Naturally let there be a forced liason to amke sure of appropirate and usefull intell flow between the two by a non-partisan office,who also cooperates with FBI and other domestic agencies. Any better ideas??
 
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macawman       6/11/2007 4:06:11 AM
As far as chemical WMDs are concerned "US Intelligence" got it right.  Iraqi nuclear weapons are another story.  The UN nuclear advisory team on the ground in Iraq, before the GW II, were correct in their assessment that Iraq was not building an A bomb. 
 
 I think it was Saddam's intent to bring his nuclear attack program back on line after the embargo ended and his oil revenues were recouped.  If correct, then the invasion of Iraq was not a mistake.  The likely failure of GW II is due to the incompetence of the operational generals and civilian leadership on the ground in Iraq during the early phase of the counter-insurgency war. 
 
Thomas Rick's "Fiasco" came to the same conclusion I did.
 
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historynut       6/11/2007 1:02:14 PM

I'd disagree. I think that our intelligence failed in Iraq. The CIA's job was to determine whether or not WMD were present, and their assessments based on the information collected was wrong. However, it is also clear that many other countries to include Arab states believed that Saddam had WMD, so the CIA was not alone.
If you look at the information they had at the time then there assessments was correct. Add in the information they got after entering Iraq they were wrong.
People think it a matter of just getting facts. It's not, it's where and who the facts come from, how often there correct etc.
Someone can give you all the right information but if he's only right 10% of the time how much credit do you give his information. If someone's been right 90% of the time how much credit do you give his information.
Without beening there you do not know the correct answer. Intelligence does not tell you what is, it tells you what is most likely. Without being able to inspect inside Iraq all you could do was put the facts together, rate them as to how correct they've been before and say this is most likely.

 
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ker       6/11/2007 3:50:43 PM
The fake gun illistratioin is a good one in my mind.  Was Saddam just tring to bluff Iran or was he also tring to split the west. Baiting some people and leaving others unconvinced.  In that way he might expect to explote pre-existing splits western nations and agencys as well as splits between them.  It is a kind of atack. Psycological, informational or political?  He might want to increase the suport for the Food For Oil program and peoples willingness to let him cheat even more by portraying the U.S. and Hawks in any country as paranoid, dishonist and dangerious.  Then helping corution in the U.N. etal. that help Saddam in more than a rought to dirty moeny it is a cry for justice and a cival disobedent act against the evals of war and corporut power.  Face it Saddom's intelegence servaces read our press.
 
Imagine you are competting with some one at work for a promotion.  He gives you just a little reason to belive that he is stealing moeny and bribing people.  Mabey he get you alone and tells you to back off because he is cheating and will win.  Back off and he wins but if you tell people what he said you look like a nut fabrocating a story with out hard evedence.  You had a self intrest in make him look bad and your no longer to be trusted.
 
The atack worked.  It has disrupted western intelegence and military funtions.  What Saddam was betting against happened thought.  Some people were willing to look bad as the nessary price of bumping him off.  It could have been different.
 
My concern is that the CIA has the state department desease and thinks they are there to protect the world from the Comander in Cheif.  If your spys can publicly atack you and get a book deal out of it and they have so many "union/buracratic" protections that you can remove let alone punish them we have a problem.  Each party starts it's own intel shop and away we go.
 
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