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Subject: Chinese Victory At Sea
SYSOP    10/12/2008 7:53:20 AM
 
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YelliChink       10/12/2008 12:29:10 PM
The 1974 Paracel naval battle was fought between PLAN and Navy of Republic of Vietnam, or NRVN.
 
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smitty237    Indifference until Armegeddon   10/12/2008 3:01:52 PM
This minor regional conflict draws a huge collective yawn from the West, but if the balloon every goes up here and a shooting war starts this thing could spriral out of control.  Nobody really cares if Malaysians and the Philipinos shoot it out over some unoccupied, tiny islands, and the only interest a Chinese/Vietnamese battle would draw would be that we would want both sides to lose.  Things become interesting and potentially terrifying when the Chinese and Taiwanese military starts pointing guns on each other.  The Chinese could bloody well provoke an incident in the Spratleys and then use that as a pretext to escalate a larger war against Taiwan that could lead to an invasion.  Such an action could drag the United States into major war in the Pacific that could have serious global implications.  It's for that reason that the West has to care about and be engaged in the squabbles regarding the Spratly Islands.
 
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newjarheadean    Same same   10/12/2008 7:55:30 PM
AHOY, these island disputes are no different than the settlements in Israel etc. Japan is like Egypt, North Korea equals Lebanon, Taiwan the Golan heights. IMO all the changes in the area of the DMZ is not unrelated to the economic crisis and all the money we barrow from China. Take the US out of Taiwan's corner and things get real simple. Quit backing Israel same same or don't and fight world war III over some rocks and books aka holy scripture. G-day!
 
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49erDweet    Add Hans Island to the list   10/12/2008 8:57:25 PM
Although it is currently not receiving much attention, Hans Island, a small spit of land lying betwixt Greenland and Canada - and currently claimed exclusively by both Denmark and Canada - could one day become another sore spot requiring care and adjudication.
 
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nyetneinnon       10/12/2008 11:14:09 PM

AHOY, these island disputes are no different than the settlements in Israel etc. Japan is like Egypt, North Korea equals Lebanon, Taiwan the Golan heights. IMO all the changes in the area of the DMZ is not unrelated to the economic crisis and all the money we barrow from China. Take the US out of Taiwan's corner and things get real simple. Quit backing Israel same same or don't and fight world war III over some rocks and books aka holy scripture. G-day!


Interesting perspective. 
 
Regardless, Obama will have a much more pro-active and successful US-Asia foreign policy than Bush.  McCain unfortunately would likely further alienate US-Asia relations and spur provocations in this region.
 
Keep hope that Obama will inject a stabilising conflict-resolution agenda, over a US-only interest projection in this region.  A win-win for all..
 
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Softwar    nyetneinnon reply - SO very wrong   10/13/2008 8:28:03 AM



Regardless, Obama will have a much more pro-active and successful US-Asia foreign policy than Bush.  McCain unfortunately would likely further alienate US-Asia relations and spur provocations in this region.

 

Keep hope that Obama will inject a stabilising conflict-resolution agenda, over a US-only interest projection in this region.  A win-win for all..

I strongly disagree with your opinion here.  The word I get from our Asian allies is that they are very afraid of an Obama election giving China a free hand in the far east.  His defense proposals will strip our forces in the area.  His defense procurement policy will eliminate the JSF - cutting jobs in our aerospace industry and cutting our allies loose to find their own air cover.  He is also a major opponent - along with his VP candidate Biden - of missile defense.  Both Japan and Taiwan are very nervious that the US will pull out of the missile defense business because of the planned Obama cut off of all development.  This will leave our allies, our Navy and even US territory vulnerable to Chinese missiles.
An Obama election will be celebrated in Beijing -especially in the halls of the PLA - because they will have a true comrade in Washington.
 
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newjarheadean    new world romors   10/13/2008 6:23:53 PM
AHOY, nyetneinnon, to support my 85 year old friends belief in the system I am rooting for Obama. IMO Obama is as close as we my ever get to returning to 09/12/01. However if he dose not deliver on at lease half his promises its over for the two sided same coin system. And also if he is killed. Softwar, a naked US is still the ultimate body of millitary might. No JFS would equal NO Japanse air craft carriers which might not be a bad idea until these nations can talk things over. G-day!
 
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newjarheadean       10/13/2008 6:26:21 PM
AHOY, LOL I miss spelled rumors. New world rumors, not romors.
 
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cwDeici       10/17/2008 12:40:28 PM



AHOY, these island disputes are no different than the settlements in Israel etc. Japan is like Egypt, North Korea equals Lebanon, Taiwan the Golan heights. IMO all the changes in the area of the DMZ is not unrelated to the economic crisis and all the money we barrow from China. Take the US out of Taiwan's corner and things get real simple. Quit backing Israel same same or don't and fight world war III over some rocks and books aka holy scripture. G-day!






Interesting perspective. 

 

Regardless, Obama will have a much more pro-active and successful US-Asia foreign policy than Bush.  McCain unfortunately would likely further alienate US-Asia relations and spur provocations in this region.

 

Keep hope that Obama will inject a stabilising conflict-resolution agenda, over a US-only interest projection in this region.  A win-win for all..


HahaharHarharharhar! Yes I look forward to the day. :D
 
-Chinese-Norwegian citizen 
 
I don't care what nice things Obama says to your allies over there. He is going to cut military budgets, which means fewer warships. We're not planning anything yet.
 
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cwDeici       10/17/2008 12:45:04 PM
And you forget that you're in Asia, with the exception of Phillipine cowardism, Hindu pacifism, South Korean fifth columnists and lazy Thais and South Koreans we still know the good old school of warfare and that what matters is what your friend will do for you... not his pretty, little words.
 
Bush would fight. McCain will fight. Obama is unpredictable (but it likely doesn't matter).
 
What's important is he's going to slaughter budgets, so the President that some day has to deal with naval battles in the Pacific will have less to intervene with (and thus may even chose not too).
Not that your 'discourage Taiwanese independence' is chugging it for the long haul (though I'm sure we're all thankful for it in the short and intermediate run and maybe in the long run for humanity). It is doing the wrong thing to avoid a potentially death defying conflict, but China would back away... PROBABLY, for now. 

 
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cwDeici       10/17/2008 12:51:07 PM
All the national characteristics I mentioned were regarding warfare (the Thais are a bit lazy with their muslim insurrection).
Hehe... it might not be bad to cut these nations loose, force them to be ambitious for their own sake, if only defense, but from defense ambition grows. 
 
Newjarheadan... a naked US is good for all parties concerned so they can talk it over? You mean you want to give your allies less to work with so I dunno... we can screw them over in negotiations?
ROFL... This is better than the former comment. 
 
Ah man, I know its Chinese policy to not do anything when the situation is just getting better, but you guys really take the barrel.
 
Thank you God for blessing this nation with kind and foolish competitors. (I am serious.)
 
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cwDeici       10/17/2008 12:57:07 PM
As for a naked US being the ultimate body of military might:
 
1) That thinking leads to it soon no longer being the case.
2) We're probably not going to do anything while such a statement remains true.
3) What does it matter? The only wars the US gave its all was the War of Independence and the Cold War. You guys love the shoestring budget. What, nukes, F-22's over China, full economic warfare? The sacrifice is too high for Americans who like everyone else, though more kind and caring than most, care almost exclusively for themselves.
You're fat and docile merchants, you're good fighters and excellent strategists, but you've never taken to war easily and China knows that. Israel knows it. We were really afraid you'd come down to Beijing on a visit when we intervened in the Korean war, but you never came.
China knows roughly how far it can push things without US intervention, but given a choice we'd rather not.
We'll just wait for this attitude, this prevalent self-hatred, and your apostasy before the Lord to rot you away (unless you turn back) while China becomes a strong, Christian nation and continues to plunder the nations.

 
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cwDeici       10/17/2008 1:05:13 PM
Give me 30 years we'll be on par economically if not before then.
Give me 50 to a 100 years, we'll on par militarily. 50 if Obama gets elected.
 
China will be the Middle Kingdom.
China will conquer Mars.
 
You are a house divided, a democracy, a merchant house concerned with immediate profit. A culture that does not know its own glory. That doesn't believe in its wars. That betrays its own soldiers. And it stems from one thing... the abandonment of your religion, which leads to the betrayal of family values, which leads to a large number of things (among them a lack of faith in protecting YOUR group, your people, your extended nation-family).
 
Hah. When China was still a hole in the mud 30 years ago you had conquered Luna.
Now you whine about the cost of missile systems and how it might be rude, your thoughts are far away from winning your just wars and even further away from colonizing Mars.
 
So you care for East Asia? History has shown you usually leave your allies behind. We will bide the time and achieve dominance, diplomatically, culturally, economically or militarily.
 
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cwDeici       10/17/2008 1:05:58 PM
Though history has shown ... do not wake America. It is a sleeping giant.
 
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cwDeici       10/17/2008 1:12:09 PM
Do not misunderstand me.
 
China is not a good nation, we may be some day.
But, as a clearheaded and moral intellectual Christian, my view of China as it is today is... competent and good to its own people overall (with dark sides but stronger and comprehensive good sides) and fairly - evil - towards the rest of the world.
 
Khartoum... Zimbabwe... we... unfortunately... send weapons to people who commit genocide. This is the horrible truth and I hope we will change.
 
But for now... the people who support Obama in Asia (and indeed America and the rest of the world except China and a few other nations) are fools. It will benefit us, not in just evil ways (making us stronger and thus letting us get away with evil), and for this we thank you.
 
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