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Subject: China Prepares to Invade North Korea
SYSOP    5/14/2008 5:55:52 AM
 
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DragonReborn       5/14/2008 8:00:30 AM
What is China's perceived strategy should North Korea go to war with South Korea and the US. Surely China wouldn't want to go to war with US and South Korea?! That would be economical suicide?

These days China profits far more from its relationship with US and South Korea, I would guess that China is simply looking to prevent North Korean refugees from flooding into China and to make sure that it has influence over any war that may take place and building the peace that would follow.

China see's itself as the centre of Asia (the world in fact) and so wants to make sure it has influence and control over its own back yard and not be seen as being pushed around by the US.

Allegedly Chinese support for North Korea has declined because they are not best pleased about North Korea helping the Syrians build nuclear reactors.

My guess would be that a secret Molotov-Ribbentrop style pact exists between China and the US agreeing to allow China to occupy and rebuild parts of North Korea alongside the South Koreans and to have influence, treaties and contracts in the creation of a new United Korea?

South Korea apparently fears a sudden unification with North Korea as this would have hugh economic drains in their economy. My guess is that following a North Korean defeat many of the walls along the DMZ might stay up to control the flow of refugees. South Korea would want to handle a slow and gradual unification. China would therefore have the opportunity to help South Korea rebuild the North and by doing so tie its influence on Korea more tightly.

In the event of war China would attempt to hold back North Korea while posturing against the West, however I think it would stand aside and maybe even help bring down the North Koreans? Or am I being naive?

 
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DragonReborn       5/14/2008 8:04:43 AM
Another interesting question is how Japan might feature in this?

I see Japan as standing back from becoming militarily involved in a Korean War unless the North launch missles against them.

IF Japan did become involved it would be interesting to see if that would alter Chinas stance.


 
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Barca       5/14/2008 8:42:39 AM

Allegedly Chinese support for North Korea has declined because they are not best pleased about North Korea helping the Syrians build nuclear reactors.

I think China told North Korea to give nuclear technology to Iran and Syria.


 
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displacedjim       5/14/2008 10:34:40 AM
Actually, I think you'd find that most of China's FLANKER have always been stationed much closer to Beijing than they have to Taiwan, and in general closer to North Korea than to Taiwan.
 
 
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dba       5/14/2008 6:43:34 PM
"My guess would be that a secret Molotov-Ribbentrop style pact exists between China and the US agreeing to allow China to occupy and rebuild parts of North Korea alongside the South Koreans and to have influence, treaties and contracts in the creation of a new United Korea?"

US allowing China to have more influence in Korean peninsula?  I highly highly doubt that.  
 
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WarNerd       5/15/2008 9:57:06 AM

Another interesting question is how Japan might feature in this?

I see Japan as standing back from becoming militarily involved in a Korean War unless the North launch missles against them.

IF Japan did become involved it would be interesting to see if that would alter Chinas stance.

Japan would be critical to US strategy in a second Korean War as a secure rear area. 
Even if gound fighting is confined to the DMZ area, you will not want to create big high value soft targets out of 747's full of troops flying directly into South Korea for the North Korean Air Force to shoot down.  Instead, the plan will be to fly into Japan, then a quick boat ride over to Korea, same as last time.
 
 The North Koreans know this, and, I believe,  have been going public with their nuclear warhead development and IRBM launches over Japan in an attempt to pressure the Japanese government into complete neutrality in event a future conflict.
 
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dba       5/15/2008 12:46:17 PM
WarNerd,

"Even if gound fighting is confined to the DMZ area, you will not want to create big high value soft targets out of 747's full of troops flying directly into South Korea for the North Korean Air Force to shoot down."

Another very very unlikely scenario.  N. Korea jets will NOT get below the DMZ, let alone getting near it.  S. Korean air force isn't just gonna roll over and let them come.  It's the scuds that will force US not to fly 747 directly into Incheon airport.  Maybe into Pusan area.
 
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dba       5/15/2008 12:54:37 PM
Warnerd,

"The North Koreans know this, and, I believe,  have been going public with their nuclear warhead development and IRBM launches over Japan in an attempt to pressure the Japanese government into complete neutrality in event a future conflict."

Japan will not be completely neutral.  What do you think?  Do you really think Japanese govt will prohibit US from staging troops/ships/material out of the US bases that are already in Japan?

N. Koreans make a big show out of nukes devs because they want money/food/oil to ensure survival of the Kim and his underlings.  Just think of N. Korea govt as a nation sized mafia.  Only thing Kim is concerned about is his own well being and those around him that make it possible.
 
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dba       5/15/2008 12:58:06 PM
Dragonreborn,

"I see Japan as standing back from becoming militarily involved in a Korean War unless the North launch missles against them."

Japanese military?  You mean Japan Self-Defense Forces"

Note, it reads  "Self-Defense".  

Japan will not get involved military but will provide secure rear area for US.
 
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TDPass       5/16/2008 12:42:52 PM
China (and probably therefore North Korea) will not start a war without a clearly defined long term strategy, which implies that they will expect a reward of something substantial. Therefore, China will not go to war with South Korea (only), too much downside. However, China will go to war IN the Korean peninsula to futher its larger objectives. If China goes to war in Korea it will be to engage the US as they know we will come to South Korea's aid. If they engage the US in the Korean peninsula, it will not be to win a war with the US only on the Korean peninsula, it will be to force the US to commit manpower and supplies to that theater. The same will then be true for the China/Taiwan theater...to engage the US and force us to commit manpower and supplies (and probably other areas...maybe central America). This will be with the ultimate goal of engaging us somewhere else for an effort at victory probably in conjunction with others of our enimies, like Russia. Of course, this is not plausible at current, but I would be willing to bet, if the US continues on its present course and Russia continues it comeback (due to its oil revenue) and China continues it military build up, I'd say they'd think they'd be ready in a decade perhaps.
 
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TDPass       5/16/2008 4:24:40 PM
China (and probably therefore North Korea) will not start a war without a clearly defined long term strategy, which implies that they will expect a reward of something substantial. Therefore, China will not go to war with South Korea (only), too much downside. However, China will go to war IN the Korean peninsula to futher its larger objectives. If China goes to war in Korea it will be to engage the US as they know we will come to South Korea's aid. If they engage the US in the Korean peninsula, it will not be to win a war with the US only on the Korean peninsula, it will be to force the US to commit manpower and supplies to that theater. The same will then be true for the China/Taiwan theater...to engage the US and force us to commit manpower and supplies (and probably other areas...maybe central America). This will be with the ultimate goal of engaging us somewhere else for an effort at victory probably in conjunction with others of our enimies, like Russia. Of course, this is not plausible at current, but I would be willing to bet, if the US continues on its present course and Russia continues it comeback (due to its oil revenue) and China continues it military build up, I'd say they'd think they'd be ready in a decade perhaps.
 
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Herald12345    Reassess.   5/16/2008 6:05:59 PM

China (and probably therefore North Korea) will not start a war without a clearly defined long term strategy, which implies that they will expect a reward of something substantial. Therefore, China will not go to war with South Korea (only), too much downside. However, China will go to war IN the Korean peninsula to futher its larger objectives. If China goes to war in Korea it will be to engage the US as they know we will come to South Korea's aid. If they engage the US in the Korean peninsula, it will not be to win a war with the US only on the Korean peninsula, it will be to force the US to commit manpower and supplies to that theater. The same will then be true for the China/Taiwan theater...to engage the US and force us to commit manpower and supplies (and probably other areas...maybe central America). This will be with the ultimate goal of engaging us somewhere else for an effort at victory probably in conjunction with others of our enimies, like Russia. Of course, this is not plausible at current, but I would be willing to bet, if the US continues on its present course and Russia continues it comeback (due to its oil revenue) and China continues it military build up, I'd say they'd think they'd be ready in a decade perhaps.
Central war is the inevitable result. Trying to attempt a diversion war that close to the heart of the HAN is insane. The  Beijing Bandits know this. Remember that most of PRCdom is still a failed 3rd word state. Burn out SE China opposite Taiwan and the Han dies as a state, period.

Herald

 
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ker       5/18/2008 8:34:04 PM
Build up could be intimidation against N. Korea.  China might wan to t keep them on the chain.
 
Consider that every one involved in this story that has any freedom of action has a vested interest in letting N. Korea starve.  It is far cheaper to let them die under Kim than to help them.  Some day when enough of the wounded have been shot there might be a unification celebration.  (China would insist on keeping a hand in and the South
 
If the death train comes off the rails ahead of script then every one will need to talk turkey.  Because that could happen China wants to get in the game with some national assets.  They could be used in many ways.  One way could be a photo op of PLA crossing the rivers (against criminal resistants?) to function as a humanitarian force.  A police action if you will.  The big question there is how far south do they go.  They may feel that the 1950's division is still in effect and every thing above the old line including the N. Korean guns and fortification belts are theirs by right of the armistice.  Another map might have Chinese, Russian and ROK zones.  The lines should be agreed on before anyone moves but you can plan on some last second changes and bumping of ships and planes. China would like to trade threats and then pull back from the brink before missiles fly.   It would make they look like they wear big boy pants.  Look for "rouge" former N. Koren elements that kill some ROK/Americans and then get "moped up" by the PLA as trophies.   Also look for every out side power to agree that there is no race to anywhere and then be shocked that their forces are ahead of plan and reacting to local issues which require faster movement.
 
Or it could all be very different.
 
Then the American leader will make a statement about how he wished he had only know what was happening to the people like Bill Clinton after Rwanda.
 
 
 
 
 
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Herald12345    RoKs and Russians.   5/18/2008 9:36:50 PM
The RoKs can do business with Moscow, maybe with Beijing, but they will not do business with BOTH at the  same time.

The DPRK is such a powder keg that the likeliest and safest course for everyone involved, is status quo as long as the diplomats can keep the fuse wet.

Knowing the Beijing Bandits, though, those cretins will find a way to light the fuse.

Herald



 
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TDPass       5/19/2008 1:08:27 PM

The RoKs can do business with Moscow, maybe with Beijing, but they will not do business with BOTH at the  same time.

The DPRK is such a powder keg that the likeliest and safest course for everyone involved, is status quo as long as the diplomats can keep the fuse wet.

Knowing the Beijing Bandits, though, those cretins will find a way to light the fuse.

Herald





Beijing allowing an totally uncontrollable element on their border especially one attempting to attain nuclear weapons seems highly unlikely. On the other hand, allowing a seemingly uncontrollable element on their border would be highly valuable to them. An active vocal element contrary to the US plays very well in the PRCs media (when the time comes) as both a PRC tool against the US (ie inciting their populace to war fervor) and an excuse for their military exercises as the PRC sees fit. And the (dishonorable) heirs of Sun Tzu have probably had the "fuse lighting" scenario planned for some time. It probably would not be good for the DPRK to be seen as too friendly with Moscow, if the world sees a Moscow, PRC and DPRK brotherhood, then when a flare up between the DPRK and ROK occurs, a collusion is more likely to be suspected. Then America of course we be more leary of getting involved (beyond treaty oblications) and more likely to pressure Beijing/Moscow. The game would be up for China/Russia if we can pin DPRK action in the Korean Peninsual against China/Russian/DPRK machinations. As long as the true nature of the threat is hidden we are more likely to fall for the trap. Given the desire of the world for their to be "humane" wars, I think the DPRK has a significant(only?) advantage (numbers) when it comes to a DPRK - ROK war. No one, of course, would use nuclear weapons, but we and the ROK would probably be positioned by the PRC (et al) as overwhelming strength and be encouraged to "take it easy" on the poor DPRK. And thereby limiting us to a (more) time-consuming convential war ("Don't destroy the DPRKs infrastructure! They need to be able to support their people! They are on the verge of starvation after all!"). This would force us to a greater commitment. I think anther "action" may be inevitable on the Korean peninsula, it's just a matter of when. With the accelerated growth of the PLA and the re-gaining affluence of Moscow via oil income I cannot see that factions within Moscow and Beijing not looking toward at how depleted a two actions in the ME has made us and using that to their advantage. I think some are even giddy at the oportunity. I don't think that in a all out battle that would couldn't take both Russia and China as it stands now, but given a decade of build up in Russian and China and then us defending both ROK and Taiwan we'd be really hard pressed.
 
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