Brigades and Regiments

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mike_golf A couple items 10/16/2004 12:18:44 AM

Not to be nitpicky, but if we are going to get this specific. Worcester wrote: "I guess not many have had the experience I have to see these things in action." Actually, I have served on Battalion, Regimental/Brigade and Division staffs. Overall you are right. Just a couple of nitpicks. The US Army will often use the terms unit and formation interchangeably, which has been causing some communication problems for you and I, although we are saying the same thing with different terms. US operational unit = NATO formation US tactical unit = NATO unit However, the US Army also uses the terms formation and unit, like NATO. It depends on who you are talking to. In the Regimental S-3 I worked for a US SAMS (School for Advanced Military Studies) graduate and he used operational and tactical terminology rather than unit and formation. It means the same thing. An operational unit or formation is capable of independent warfighting a tactical unit or formation is not. Next, I realize this is really nitpicky, but, you marked a battalion thus: ----III---- I I I I ----------- When it should have been marked thus ----II---- I I I I ---------- The first unit symbol you gave was a regiment, which is a tactical unit, except, of course, for the American Armored Cavalry Regiment. Finally, on US map overlays, an ACR boundary is marked so: --------III--------- not so ---------X---------- Because an ACR is a unique formation, more firepower than a brigade, slightly less logistics, its own organic aviation (in the US Army aviation is normally not found below division) and heavy artillery. Plus the tradition that cavalry is organized in troops, squadrons and regiments and the cavalry jealously guards its tradition. Other than that, quite accurate.

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mike_golf RE:A couple items 10/16/2004 12:41:08 AM

One more thing, for those interested, units are marked so: o = squad oo = section ooo = platoon I = company II = battalion III = regiment X = brigade XX = division XXX = corps XXXX = army Cavalry Org platoons are single arm: 4 tanks, 6 bradleys plus scouts or 6 mortars troops (company) are combined arms: 2 tank platoons, 2 cavalry platoons, 1 mortar section (3 mortars), 1 HQ section squadrons (battalion) are combined arms: 3 cavalry squadrons, 1 SP arty battery, 1 truck platoon, 1 POL platoon, maintenance troops, messhall, squadron aid station, Squadron staff Regiment (brigade) is an operational formation: 3 Ground squadrons 1 Aviation squadron (1 troop blackhawks, 1 recon troop, 1 attack troop) 1 regimental support squadron (POL, ammo, maintenance, etc.) 1 MP company 1 medical company (normally only found in divisions) 1 Arty battalion (2 SP batteries, 1 MLRS battery) ADA, FAC, FO, etc. slices The ACR is commanded by the Corps, not a division, providing the corps commander with an independent operational unit (NATO formation) with a lot of punch that is not wedded to the heavy division tail. An ACR has about 50% of the punching power of a heavy division, but only 1/3 the troops. The above structure may have changed somewhat since I was in an ACR. When I first joined the Army each squadron also had a fourth, pure tank, troop, with 3 tank platoons and a HQ section. The tank troop was the squadron commander's armored fist.

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AlbanyRifles And a couple more.... 10/18/2004 11:50:52 AM

For the US anyway In the US field artillery, the firing battalions are not allocated to the maneuver units (i.e., Btry A to Mech Battalion 1, Btry B to Tank Battalion 2, etc) US doctrine allocates fires based on priorities established by the maneuver commander supported by the artilleryunit (ie, the brigade commander says this battalion has first priority, this battalions second, etc.) based on the scheme of maneuver of the unit. What you describe is called dedicated battery...it is not done in mecahnized units and is rarely done in light/airborne units. The US believes in massing fires from multiple sources on a target and then moving on to the next target in priority. In US mechanized infantry units, there is no support company. The mortars and scouts are in HHC and there are 3 rifle companies. In air assault & airborne units, there is an anti-armor company and the battalion mortars are in HHC. In light units, there is an AT platoon, mortars and scouts in the HHC. Oh, and as in all things, all of those things you have writ as law were and are routinely violated by US forces whether they are operating within or outside of NATO. No US Army maneuver brigades are commanded by brigadier generals...they are always commanded by colonels. Engineer unit symbology is an E on its size (looks like a bridge) Medical unit is a cross centered within the box (top to bottom and side to side) Military Police have MP The X for infantry is actually for the crossed belts on their chest (cartidge box and bayonet) and not crossed rifles US brigades do not hold EPWs (enemy prisoners of war) they get handled by corps MPs. NOTE: POWS are our guys held by the enemy

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Roman RE:Brigades and regiments and UNITS...everything you ever wanted to know.... 10/19/2004 7:06:12 AM

Fantastic post Worcester. I will now never confuse a unit and a formation in my life! :) So Brigade is the lowest level of formations, but why is it that Division has for a long time been considered the central formation in military organizations. Always, when you saw military comparisons, they were done in divisions. Deployments also generally took the form of divisions and divisions were considered the smallest military level capable of sustained independent operations (which is strange, since as you have conclusively shown, brigade is an all arms formation and capable of independent operations). So... why the central importance of the division?

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Roman RE:Worcester 10/19/2004 7:08:35 AM

Sam - that is interesting - it seems that the Marines do not completely obey the general rules described by Worcester. On the other hand, the formation you describe is more like a battle-group than a battalion - is it not?

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Roman RE:A couple items 10/19/2004 7:15:20 AM

"o = squad oo = section ooo = platoon I = company II = battalion III = regiment X = brigade XX = division XXX = corps XXXX = army" Hmm, the symbols seem to loosely correspond to levels of warfare: squad, section and platoon - engagements, actions and duels - tactics company, battalion, regiment - battles - tactics division, corps, army, army group - campaigns - operational art "platoons are single arm: 4 tanks, 6 bradleys plus scouts or 6 mortars troops (company) are combined arms: 2 tank platoons, 2 cavalry platoons, 1 mortar section (3 mortars), 1 HQ section squadrons (battalion) are combined arms: 3 cavalry squadrons, 1 SP arty battery, 1 truck platoon, 1 POL platoon, maintenance troops, messhall, squadron aid station, Squadron staff Regiment (brigade) is an operational formation: 3 Ground squadrons 1 Aviation squadron (1 troop blackhawks, 1 recon troop, 1 attack troop) 1 regimental support squadron (POL, ammo, maintenance, etc.) 1 MP company 1 medical company (normally only found in divisions) 1 Arty battalion (2 SP batteries, 1 MLRS battery) ADA, FAC, FO, etc. slices" Interesting, but what do following short cuts stand for: POL, ADA, FAC and FO? Also, in the three troop aviation squadron, how many aircraft are there per squadron? The ACR is commanded by the Corps, not a division, providing the corps commander with an independent operational unit (NATO formation) with a lot of punch that is not wedded to the heavy division tail. An ACR has about 50% of the punching power of a heavy division, but only 1/3 the troops. The above structure may have changed somewhat since I was in an ACR. When I first joined the Army each squadron also had a fourth, pure tank, troop, with 3 tank platoons and a HQ section. The tank troop was the squadron commander's armored fist. "

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Roman RE:And a couple more.... 10/19/2004 7:16:36 AM

"US brigades do not hold EPWs (enemy prisoners of war) they get handled by corps MPs. NOTE: POWS are our guys held by the enemy" What is the POW capacity of a brigade or corps whichever it is that holds them?

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Roman Air Support 10/19/2004 7:29:16 AM

Air force is a different service and thus is not part of 'combined arms' at the brigade level, but suppose you wanted to provide decent air support for a brigade or a division sized formation. How many air craft would generally be adequate for that purpose?

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Sam Roman 10/19/2004 8:39:54 AM

The Marine Corps rarely obey anyones rules when it comes to anything. battlegroup is an Army term. We have Marine Air Ground Task Forces. One of the things, you should understand about a Marine infantry Battalion is the internal org. I know I will get this wrong but here goes. A US Army infantry battalion is either 1. Mech - they all ride in Bradleys 2. Air Assault - they get to the battle in helos 3. Leg - they walk Every USMC inf battalion has 1 company that primarly trains with amtracks (Mech) 1 company that primarly trains with helos (Air Assault) 1 company that primarily trains with small boats. However they all do helo and amtrack training. Difference in MC and Army thinking. MC looks at what you do not how you get there. In our minds anyone can do a helo assault. And anyone can do a mech assault. You don't need to have a mech div or air assault div. In the Army how many helo raids does a mech unit practice? Thats what keeps the enemy unbalanced in an amphibous assault. He has to defend against a deliberate frontal assault from mech forces, an infiltration from units in small boats and a helo assault. For your air support. Once again the MC does have organic air support. Hey we have our own Air Force! Heres how its chopped. A MEU gets half a fixed wing squadron, (Harriers) enough 46s to lift a reenforced company (12) a C&C bird (1 UH-1), 4 cobras and 4 ch-53s. Relize thatif tasked with offensive operations there is normally a carrier battle group nearby. It continues to grow from there. A regt will have enough lift to helo a Bn. Same with Amtracks. A Div has enough to helo a Regt. and Mech a Regt. Of course all these things are dependant on METT-TSL

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Sam RE:Roman 10/19/2004 8:43:40 AM

Now for a little propaganda. Marines just gotta let it come out . Battlegroup - 2 or more Marines. ;)

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mike_golf RE:A couple items 10/19/2004 9:44:38 AM

"Interesting, but what do following short cuts stand for: POL, ADA, FAC and FO?" POL - Petroleum, Oil, Lubricants ADA - Air Defense Artillery FAC - Forward Air Controller FO - Forward Observer (artillery) "Also, in the three troop aviation squadron, how many aircraft are there per squadron?" There used to be 16 helicopters in a troop, I know that has changed but don't remember what the change was.

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MikkoLn RE:Brigades and Regiments 10/19/2004 11:43:37 AM

>>What is 'jaeger'? I thought it means 'hunter' in German. The term is retained as a traditional unit nomeclature. German term has established itself as a commonly used description worldwide, though the writing and pronouncing is variable. The composition and model of these troops vary according to country, but basically you can call them light infantry. In Finnish army the term is used to separate local area defence or limited mobility formations (infantry) and high mobility first line maneuver forces (jaeger). For the usage of division as the basic counting/comparision unit, I think it appears to be rather justified as for long division has been the sole main battle formation of about all armies. Only recently the model has been chancing more extensively around the world with the role of brigade growing (though in some countries brigade has been the main formation already for several decades now).

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AlbanyRifles RE:And a couple more.... 10/19/2004 1:34:17 PM

Actually, the corps MPs take them and hand them over to a theater military police brigade who then holds them. The guys at Abu Grahb prison were some of those......they aren't all like those knuckleheads). A company can handle about 1500 EPWs.. A Brigade can have around 8 of these companies.

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Roman RE:Roman 10/20/2004 7:03:12 PM

"1. Mech - they all ride in Bradleys 2. Air Assault - they get to the battle in helos 3. Leg - they walk" Probably true, but where do the new 'Stryker' brigades fit in? They seem to be very different from normal brigades and seem to have different attachments too - right? How exactly do they differ from 'normal' brigades? "For your air support. Once again the MC does have organic air support. Hey we have our own Air Force! Heres how its chopped. A MEU gets half a fixed wing squadron, (Harriers) enough 46s to lift a reenforced company (12) a C&C bird (1 UH-1), 4 cobras and 4 ch-53s. Relize thatif tasked with offensive operations there is normally a carrier battle group nearby." Half a squadron of Harriers is 12 aircraft - right? Also, it seems that this level air support is not considered sufficient by the Marines, since you mention the need for having a carrier battlegroup nearby.

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Roman Divisions 10/20/2004 7:08:38 PM

A division would, I assume, be made up of 3-4 maneuver brigades - such as the ones the structure of which was explained to me in previous posts. Apart from such 3-4 maneuver brigades (would they all generally be of the same type, or would it be different brigades) what other organic elements and attachments would a division have?

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