Brigades and Regiments

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ozigrunt RE:Brigades and Regiments 10/12/2004 7:42:15 AM

"Now I see why U.S. divisions in WWI had 40,000+ troops" They did???!!! Roman, the unit names Platoon, company, battalion, regiment, brigade, division, army, army group etc. vary GREATLY from era to era, army to army, nation to nation. They will very from organisation, function, degree of independence to size. They are a very unreliable means of comparison unless you know the detail. e.g a polish inf pl was about 65 men. German and most others were around the 35. I think the Marines made three major manning changes to their platoon in the three years of Island hoping. The size came down as firepower went up. Even within the one period the meaning can change. In WW2 a british Brigade was a fairly rigid org of a hq + 3 Bns commanded by a Brigadier with an attached arty bn (but called a regiment). But in Nth Africa it became the bases of a flexible operational unit been reinforced with armour, anti-tank and arty units and ranged up to 6500 men. This was a major organisational development during WW2 when ad hoc, or at least task oriented, groups were built around a corp HQ with attached arms appropriate for the task. The names of these groups varied for army to army. The Brits called them Brigades, the Yanks regimental groups, Germans Combat Groups,Australians Task Force and the Japs called them by the name of the appointed commander, e.g. the Toyo Force. And to confuse things further a regiment could be a bn size group and a company could be called a squadron and a platoon a troop - just depending on the Corp or Arm that it referred to. Do you wish to rephrase your question.....????

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Worcester RE:Brigades and Regiments - aaarrrrgh!!! It is very simple 10/12/2004 2:23:39 PM

Much gnashing of teeth!!!! Two points (which I've mentioned before)... (1) a UNIT is ALWAYS, ALWAYS a battalion sized organization (regardless of the latest Pentagon nomenclature calling brigades "units of action"...ignore it). A battalion is 550-850 soldiers commanded by a Lieutenant Colonel who OWNS his troops; they all BELONG to him and will all identify themselves as belonging to the same UNIT. Each UNIT has limited endurane without the support of suppor troops within the same BRIGADE. (2) a BRIGADE is a FORMATION of UNITS. It is commanded by a BRIGADIER GENERAL who will have a variety of different UNITS to allow him to accomplish a specific war mission. For example an ARMORED BRIGADE may have 2 TANK UNITS, 1 INFANTRY UNIT, 1 ARTILLERY UNIT, 1 ENGINEER SUB-UNIT AND 1 SIGNALS SUB-UNIT, 1 MEDICAL SUB-UNIT, 1 LOGISTICS UNIT plus military police, a records offcie, burial detail. An INFANTRY BRIGADE will have 2 OR 3 INFANTRY UNITS, 1 ARTILLERY UNIT, 1 LOGISTICS UNIT, etc. A MECHANIZED BRIGADE will have 2 INFANTRY + 1 TANK UNIT, etc. Each BRIGADE is formed for a specific task and mission with 4-6 units which belong to that brigade. As a war develops, UNITS may be added to or taken from a BRIGADE on a TEMPORARY basis to accomplish specific immediate missions. At the end of a war a BRIGADE will usually have the same UNITS it started with. A BRIGADE is the smallest formation of ALL ARMS. a REGIMENT may be one of FOUR things:- (1) REGIMENT (or Regimental Combat Team) in the US Marine Corps is commanded by a Colonel and means a grouping of 2-4 UNITS designed for a landing operation. It is like the front end of a BRIGADE, but has less LOGISTICS support, relying on ships for supply. It is not designed to be as independent as a BRIGADE in full scale war. (2) A US Cavalry REGIMENT is a special structure based on tradition consisting of a number of armored UNITS; the Regiment, Squadrons (battalions), Troops (Companies) and Platoons. Think of it as an armored version of a US Marine regiment; it is designed for fast reconnaissance and shock action and has limited self-support. It operates independently usually within a larger DIVISION. (3) A US infantry REGIMENT is usually an administrative structure for a number of UNITS. Foe example the 1/257, 2/257 and 3/257 are the 1st, 2nd and 3rd battalions of the 257th Regiment. They may serve together or separately in formations like a Brigade or Division. (3) A UK Cavalry REGIMENT is a tank UNIT. The squadrons are companies, the troops are platoons. It is grouped with other UNITS within a BRIGADE. (4) A UK infantry REGIMENT is the administrative "home" for the battalions (like in the US army), but the Regiment NEVER takes the field...the individual battalions will serve usually with diferent BRIGADES on different missions. In summary:- A UNIT is what you wear on your cap badge or lapel badge - infantry battalion, armor battalion, UK armor regiment, marine battalion. A BRIGADE is what you wear on your shoulder patch. a REGIMENT as a formation is rare today and is a "small brigade".

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JohnBarry RE:Brigades and Regiments 10/12/2004 3:06:22 PM

Is anyone going to start explaining UOA and UOEx and UOEy? Just Kidding ozigrunt had the best answer to Roman's orginal question- "the unit names Platoon, company, battalion, regiment, brigade, division, army, army group etc. vary GREATLY from era to era, army to army, nation to nation. They will very from organisation, function, degree of independence to size." May be better if you specified a country and time period.

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mike_golf Not quite that simple 10/12/2004 10:30:52 PM

Worcester, I had to disagree with you in several places where you are not correct. Not to start a war, but there were inaccuracies. I was trying to avoid getting too specific, since I don't think that is what Roman was really looking for. Additionally, your answer only addresses Anglo military tradition. At the bottom I provide a short guide to Russian military formations. (2) a BRIGADE is a FORMATION of UNITS. It is commanded by a BRIGADIER GENERAL who will have a variety of different UNITS to allow him to accomplish a specific war mission. This is not true for all Armies, nor even for all NATO Armies. In the US Army, for example, a brigade is commanded by a Colonel, not a brigadier general. Brigadiers, in the US Army, are assistant division commanders. A BRIGADE is the smallest formation of ALL ARMS. Again, not true in the US Army. As part of the Army's transformation effort the battalion is the smallest combined arms formation, not the brigade. (2) A US Cavalry REGIMENT is a special structure based on tradition consisting of a number of armored UNITS; the Regiment, Squadrons (battalions), Troops (Companies) and Platoons. Think of it as an armored version of a US Marine regiment; it is designed for fast reconnaissance and shock action and has limited self-support. It operates independently usually within a larger DIVISION. Actually a US cavalry regiment operates as an operational unit at the Corps level, not the division level. An ACR is capable of sustaining itself independently for a significant period of time is an operational unit. It is larger than a brigade, with more firepower, helicopters, transport and logistics. As the US Army re-organizes that will change. (3) A US infantry REGIMENT is usually an administrative structure for a number of UNITS. Foe example the 1/257, 2/257 and 3/257 are the 1st, 2nd and 3rd battalions of the 257th Regiment. They may serve together or separately in formations like a Brigade or Division. Strike the infantry part and you are correct. In the US Army, infantry, armor and artillery regiments are administrative structures. The child battalions are assigned to operational brigades. A UNIT is what you wear on your cap badge or lapel badge - infantry battalion, armor battalion, UK armor regiment, marine battalion. Not true in the US Army, a regiment is what you wear on your epaulettes and it is your regimental affiliation (i.e. your home regiment). You wear your branch (i.e. armor, infantry, cavalry, artillery, etc.) affiliation on your lapel. A BRIGADE is what you wear on your shoulder patch. Unless you are assigned to an independent brigade, you wear a division on your shoulder patch. There are very few independent brigades in the US Army. Except for the 3 Cavalry Regiments. If, like me, your home regiment is the 11th Cavalry, then you would wear both a regimental patch on your shoulder and a regimental crest on your shoulder epaulettes. Russia (in the past countries that were aligned with the USSR, including the Warsaw Pact and many middle eastern nations, used this system of military formations) Platoon - basic manuever unit. 3 tanks, 3 IFV + infantry Company - 3 platoons plus a company commander Battalion - 3 companies, a very small battalion staff, minimal combat support Regiment - 3 battalions, all arms, recon, anti-air, combat support Division - 3 regiments,artillery, recon, anti-air, logistics, transport. This is, traditionally, the smallest operational unit in the Russian army. Army - 2 to 6 divisions, army level artillery, helicopters, etc. This is the operational equivalent to an American Corps Brigade - an independent operational unit, nearly a division in capabilities with all of its attached artillery, helicopters, combat support. It is generally the centerpiece of an Operational Manuever Group. In Russian doctrine the OMG exploits the breakthrough and consists of 1 to 2 brigades and 2 to 4 category A divisions.

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Sam RE:Brigades and Regiments - aaarrrgh Worchester 10/12/2004 10:38:16 PM

Well done. Only one small correction "A BRIGADE is the smallest formation of ALL ARMS." Except for a Marine Expeditionary Unit. The smallest Marine Air Ground Task Force consisting of a Command element (COL), Battalion Landing Team, A Composite Helo (46/53/AH-1)squadron, a 6 plane Harrier det and a MEU Service Support Detachment. The RLT in A MEB is the ground assault element. They do not get their logistical support from ships. They get them from the BSSD. We Marines learned in WW2 that ships sometimes leave us high and dry. RLT- Regt Landing Team sometimes referred to as a Regt Combat Team. MEB- Marine Expeditionary Brigade, Sometimes referred to as the Marine Expeditionary Force Forward. In the Marine Corps this structure is pretty much kept together. If we want to add/subtract units for a specific mission then that element becomes a Task Force. Us Marines always have to be different. It keeps the navy guessing

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Sam RE:Brigades and Regiments - aaarrrgh Worchester 10/12/2004 10:49:28 PM

But hey we can at least agree that the smallest formation that uses combined armes is the fireteam. Right?

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Worcester RE:Brigades and Regiments - aaarrrgh Sam & mike 10/13/2004 7:15:31 PM

Sam: Thank you. Yes. Sam & Mike: I was trying to make the PRINCIPLE intelligible and understandable for Roman before introducing every variation. I believe Roman wanted to understand the distinction between UNITS & FORMATIONS, specifically between UNITS & BRIGADES. In my time I have seen military fashion rotate and come back to square one. I served in companies and battalions which were always UNITS; brigades, field forces and task forces which were always FORMATIONS; and battlegroups, combat teams (formed around companies), combat teams (formed around a battalion), combat teams (formed around a regiment) which were always a hybrid. If you read again what I said, "the Brigade is the smallest formation of all arms." Note: ALL ARMS, not Combined or any other variation. Only a brigade will have a permanent full logistics complement, full engineering complement, independent signals corp unit, heavy transport unit, air unit, military police, adjutant, full medical/field surgical, veterinary, intelligence. The brigade is a permanent stucture. Each brigade will have the same resources as found at division, but in smaller quantity. It is an army in miniature. Now, the battle group or all arms battle group or combined arms battle group has been around for decades - it is not new, being based on the old Panzer/Panzer Grenadier concept. The battlegroup formed around a battalion is rarely a permanent struture, is usually created by the Brigade for specific operations and is adjusted in war by re- allocating sub-units (companies). An infantry battle group MAY have a company of tanks and an arty battery; it may even get an allocation of AAA arty and some signals troops from Brigade HQ to make it more independent. But it will not have its own heavy transporters or field hospital or fuel specialists or bomb disposal or armored brideg layers or MP's,,,etc. etc. It cannot be said to contain ALL ARMS and branches of the service no matter what name you give it. It is NOT an army in miniature. This was the "simple" point I was hoping to get across to Roman. Rather than the multitude of exceptions.

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HorribleSailor RE:smallest indigenous all-arms 10/13/2004 7:33:58 PM

Simplest way (and the origin of the name) to remember that a Brigade is the smallest indigenous all-arms formation? It's commanded by a Brigadier GENERAL. General = commands more than one type of unit, a 'general' command.

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mike_golf RE:Brigades and Regiments - aaarrrgh Sam & mike 10/13/2004 7:36:20 PM

Worcester wrote: "This was the "simple" point I was hoping to get across to Roman. Rather than the multitude of exceptions." I think my explanation was simpler and expressed the same concept. A brigade is the smallest operational unit (or formation, if you prefer). A regiment is a tactical formation. It does not matter what the name is. For example, a US Armored Cavalry Regiment is an operational unit, a British Armor Regiment is not. However, these names are maintained as matters of tradition. In reality the Russian structure makes this much clearer than the US/UK structure, which has so many names for units and formations based on tradition rather than where they fit into the tactical vs. operational structure.

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mike_golf RE:smallest indigenous all-arms 10/13/2004 7:39:04 PM

I keep trying to tell folks you can't use that "commanded by a brigadier general" rule. A US brigade is commanded by a colonel, not a general.

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