Brigades and Regiments

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Sam RE:Brigades and Regiments - aaarrrgh Worchester 10/12/2004 10:49:28 PM

But hey we can at least agree that the smallest formation that uses combined armes is the fireteam. Right?

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Worcester RE:Brigades and Regiments - aaarrrgh Sam & mike 10/13/2004 7:15:31 PM

Sam: Thank you. Yes. Sam & Mike: I was trying to make the PRINCIPLE intelligible and understandable for Roman before introducing every variation. I believe Roman wanted to understand the distinction between UNITS & FORMATIONS, specifically between UNITS & BRIGADES. In my time I have seen military fashion rotate and come back to square one. I served in companies and battalions which were always UNITS; brigades, field forces and task forces which were always FORMATIONS; and battlegroups, combat teams (formed around companies), combat teams (formed around a battalion), combat teams (formed around a regiment) which were always a hybrid. If you read again what I said, "the Brigade is the smallest formation of all arms." Note: ALL ARMS, not Combined or any other variation. Only a brigade will have a permanent full logistics complement, full engineering complement, independent signals corp unit, heavy transport unit, air unit, military police, adjutant, full medical/field surgical, veterinary, intelligence. The brigade is a permanent stucture. Each brigade will have the same resources as found at division, but in smaller quantity. It is an army in miniature. Now, the battle group or all arms battle group or combined arms battle group has been around for decades - it is not new, being based on the old Panzer/Panzer Grenadier concept. The battlegroup formed around a battalion is rarely a permanent struture, is usually created by the Brigade for specific operations and is adjusted in war by re- allocating sub-units (companies). An infantry battle group MAY have a company of tanks and an arty battery; it may even get an allocation of AAA arty and some signals troops from Brigade HQ to make it more independent. But it will not have its own heavy transporters or field hospital or fuel specialists or bomb disposal or armored brideg layers or MP's,,,etc. etc. It cannot be said to contain ALL ARMS and branches of the service no matter what name you give it. It is NOT an army in miniature. This was the "simple" point I was hoping to get across to Roman. Rather than the multitude of exceptions.

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HorribleSailor RE:smallest indigenous all-arms 10/13/2004 7:33:58 PM

Simplest way (and the origin of the name) to remember that a Brigade is the smallest indigenous all-arms formation? It's commanded by a Brigadier GENERAL. General = commands more than one type of unit, a 'general' command.

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mike_golf RE:Brigades and Regiments - aaarrrgh Sam & mike 10/13/2004 7:36:20 PM

Worcester wrote: "This was the "simple" point I was hoping to get across to Roman. Rather than the multitude of exceptions." I think my explanation was simpler and expressed the same concept. A brigade is the smallest operational unit (or formation, if you prefer). A regiment is a tactical formation. It does not matter what the name is. For example, a US Armored Cavalry Regiment is an operational unit, a British Armor Regiment is not. However, these names are maintained as matters of tradition. In reality the Russian structure makes this much clearer than the US/UK structure, which has so many names for units and formations based on tradition rather than where they fit into the tactical vs. operational structure.

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mike_golf RE:smallest indigenous all-arms 10/13/2004 7:39:04 PM

I keep trying to tell folks you can't use that "commanded by a brigadier general" rule. A US brigade is commanded by a colonel, not a general.

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HorribleSailor RE:smallest indigenous all-arms - mikegolf 10/13/2004 7:54:27 PM

...which is a relatively recent change of one rank. I think the point still holds true as the origin of the term. I could argue that British doctrine in the inter-war period said that brigades were single-arm units (ie infantry brigades, armoured brigades etc) and that a DIVISION was the smallest, hence the removal of the term 'general' from the British rank of Brigadier in that era... but I won't..

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Roman RE:Brigades and Regiments 10/13/2004 9:21:20 PM

Actually, both Worcester's and mike_golf's explanations were great - they looked at the Brigade/Regiment issue from different angles, which is always good. I appreciate that! :) As to differences between countries, you have described the US & UK systems as well as the Russian/Soviet/Warsaw Pact system. Are the German and the French unit organization systems the same as those of the U.S. or the UK or are they unique? How about Chinese systems and those of other countries?

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Roman RE:Brigades and Regiments 10/14/2004 8:13:56 AM

You speak of brigades as being the smallest all arms units and battalions being the smallest combined arms units. This obviously means that brigades have organic attachments, apart from the maneuver battalions, of types that battalions do not have. Would it be possible to list the attachment a battalion would have and those a brigade would have so that I can compare them?

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MikkoLn RE:Brigades and Regiments 10/14/2004 8:34:02 AM

I have to say too that the composition and designations of units and organizations vary very much from country to another. Besides traditions, this is often also affected by local conditions, doctrines and experiences and from these decisions affecting to strength within certain unit class have been done in each countries differently. Russian system is (well, who would be surprised) analytically the most perfect, unpredictable and logical table of units of the around the strength they are generally understood to be, positioned in a place they are generally understood to be, so that?s perhaps the best example to study the baselines first. With western nations, nearly all countries have their own variations that doesn?t fit perfectly in ?traditional? system by either their designation or use/strength, so they might be a bit confusing or misleading at certain points. Anyway, you mentioned thinking that brigade might be up to 16-20 000 in strength, which I must say is a very high number. At least in Europe I haven?t heard of Brigade larger than 10 000, most units comprising several thousand (less than 5000 is usual) men. As for German units, I had some contact with them during early 90?s and by that time their brigade organizational structure comprised two tank, two mechanized and one artillery battalions as the main combat units, with attached sub-units and logistics, and despite relatively heavy firepower their unit of that kind could deliver, it had only a strength of 4000-5000 (this might be dated, especially as I think they?re going through some major re-arrangement, and of course they had many different kinds of brigades too). Finnish system is relatively much similar, armoured brigades being like above and jaeger/infantry brigades slightly larger. For local system, Regiment is purely a peace-time training unit that trains soldiers of certain branch (for example, engineer regiment or aa regiment) that would be deployed in wartime as sub-units ? battalions and companies - of brigades or corps. Brigade exists also as a peace time training unit for the backbone fighting troops, but most notably it?s the only wartime unit within a range of regiment-division. A bit confusing?

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MikkoLn RE:Brigades and Regiments 10/14/2004 8:42:28 AM

Also this varies much according to unit type, strength, country and so on but usual attachments for brigade would be companies (one or more) of reconnaissance, engineering, anti-aircraft and anti-tank, with possibly more specialized ones such as medical and electronics/signals. Most notably, whereas battalions have only indirect support of 80?120mm mortars of the unit, brigade commander usually does have artillery battalion or even regiment that gives radical boost for the brigade?s indirect firepower by adding real artillery. In addition, brigade commander might have authority to call for other indirect support too, even ground attack aviation.

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MikkoLn Attachment 10/14/2004 8:44:07 AM

Sorry, the last post was an respond for Roman, this original left missing, >>You speak of brigades as being the smallest all arms units and battalions being the smallest combined arms units. This obviously means that brigades have organic attachments, apart from the maneuver battalions, of types that battalions do not have. Would it be possible to list the attachment a battalion would have and those a brigade would have so that I can compare them?

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Roman RE:Brigades and Regiments 10/15/2004 7:07:26 AM

"Anyway, you mentioned thinking that brigade might be up to 16-20 000 in strength, which I must say is a very high number." Well, I though this would be with all the logistics and attachments at the time I wrote it, but since then the posts that followed have indirectly indicated that it would be significantly less. That said, I have now looked up some U.S. marine brigades and some did have 16,000 men with their attachments, so perhaps it was not that far of the mark for the largest brigades. "At least in Europe I haven?t heard of Brigade larger than 10 000, most units comprising several thousand (less than 5000 is usual) men. As for German units, I had some contact with them during early 90?s and by that time their brigade organizational structure comprised two tank, two mechanized and one artillery battalions as the main combat units, with attached sub-units and logistics, and despite relatively heavy firepower their unit of that kind could deliver, it had only a strength of 4000-5000 (this might be dated, especially as I think they?re going through some major re-arrangement, and of course they had many different kinds of brigades too). Finnish system is relatively much similar, armoured brigades being like above and jaeger/infantry brigades slightly larger." Thanks for your help. BTW: What is 'jaeger'? I thought it means 'hunter' in German.

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Worcester RE:Brigades and Regiments - mike 10/15/2004 3:15:21 PM

"a brigade is the smallest operational unit...a regiment is a tactical formation... No. A BRIGADE is a formation, a battalion is the ONLY UNIT...a regiment can be a UNIT or a hybrid (see below) "A US armored cavalry regiment is an operational unit a Brit armor regiment is not." No. A Brit armor regiment is equivalent to a tank battalion and is therefore a UNIT. A US cavalry regiment remains an exception to the rules; it is comprised of battalions (which it calls squadrons) and is best considered what the French would call a demi-brigade or the US Marines would call a Regimental Combat Team. mike-golf; did you serve in the Cav? Well then you were one exception to the NATO rules which are quite clear about the differences between UNITS and FORMATIONS. Note that, however clear you may find the Russian system, most of their friends have joined our friends in NATO.

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Worcester RE:Brigades and regiments and UNITS...everything you ever wanted to know.... 10/15/2004 5:28:22 PM

NATO now covers most of the free world armies and includes a number of East European nations. It is the biggest military alliance and the longest lived. Part 1: NATO army organization which is used by everyone - yes, everyone, even with the odd national quirky exception. If anything, in adopting a BRIGADE structure instead of divisions, we in the US are becoming more "European". Part 2 : outline structure of a UNIT and a BRIGADE. PART 1 In order to plan and excecute operations in an alliance with so many countries and languages we standardized out terminology in 1947 based on US/UK methodology. Therefore:- The term UNIT is only ever used to refer to a battalion-sized UNIT composed of company-sized SUB-UNITS. It is called a UNIT because it is singular. On a map or organization chart it is always a big box depicted thus:- _____III_____ I I I I I___________I This always the UNIT symbol. The " III " bars on top of the box show it is a UNIT. If it has " II " bars it is a SUB-UNIT (a company) or " I " indicates a platoon. If it is an infantry battalion it will have a large "X" in the middle of the box derived from crossed rifles. If it is a wheeled unit (in trucks) the box will have two " O O " underneath like little wheels. If it is tank battallion the box will have in the middle a large (____) symbol like the tracks of a tank. This is the same symbol used by UK armored "regiments" because they are just tank battalions but called a regiment for traditional reasons. It it is armored or mechanized infantry it will have BOTH the armor (______) AND the X for infantry superimposed thus: (__X__). If it is an artillery battalion it will have a black dot like " O " in the middle, like looking down the barrell of a howitzer. It it is tracked artillery it will have the armor symbol superimposed on the howitzer mouth thus: (__O__) inside the unit box. If it is an engineer battalion it will have a large " E " in the middle. If it is tracked it will be: (__E__) inside the unit box. It it is a mechanical aid battalion it will have a wrench or spanner in the middle. If it is a signals battalion it will have a lightning flash. It it is a medical battalion it will have " M " in the middle. If it is a military police battalion it will have a " P " in the middle. Do you want me to go on? An armored infantry battle group including a tank company will be shown thus: _____III______ I I I _______ I I (___X___) I I I I____________I plus: ______II_____ I I I _____ I I (_____) I I I I___________I ALL UNIT and SUN-UNITSs Note the tank company has " II " are marked thus on ALL NATO plans and operations orders. FORMATIONS, including BRIGADES, DIVISIONS CORPS AND ARMY GROUPS are NEVER marked in this way. Only the FORMATION AREA OF RESPONSIBILITY is shown, THE OUTER LIMITS or BOUNDARY being marked thus:- ------- X -------- : BRIGADE BOUNDARY (One Star) ------- XX ------- : DIVISION BOUNDARY (Two Star) ------- XXX ------ : CORPS BOUNDARY (Three Star) ------- XXXX ----- : ARMY GROUP BOUNDARY (Four Star) Note that this designation corresponds with the ranks of the FORMATION COMMANDERS. Regardless of the fact the US Army may decide currently to make a Colonel a Brigade commander. It is irrelevant to the distinction between UNIT and FORMATION. A UNIT is always marked on a map; a FORMATION is simply marked by geographic boundaries indicating that all UNITS in that area within the FORMATION AREA OF RESPONSIBILITY. A Brigade (or a division or corps or army group) will have within its AREA of RESPONSIBILITY a number of UNITS with which to pursue its operations. A US cavalry regiment will have a designated area of responsibility ------X------- just like a Brigade with its UNITS (battalions which traditionally it calls "squadrons") shown by location within it. Part 2: Basic elementary structure of UNITs and BRIGADES. (a) A UNIT is a battalion commanded by a Lt Col whether it is American, Turkish, Icelandic, Polish, Italian, Greek, German or Norweigian. It is a battalion whether it is called a battalion a US cavalry squadron or a UK cavalry regiment. Each unit will have 3 or more SUB-UNITS (companies, troops, squadrons, batteries, whatever). Usually, 3 SUB-UNITS will do the "work" and a fourth will provide the headquarters and perhaps a fifth or sixth will have specialist functions. For example: An infantry UNIT (battalion) will normally have at least 3 "rifle" companies plus an HQ company and a "support weapons" company. An artillery UNIT (battalion, regiment, whatever) will normally have at least 3 companies of cannon (batteries, whatever) plus an HQ company and a company of fire controllers. A tank UNIT (battalion, regiment, whatever) will usually have at least 3 tank companies plus an HQ company plus a support company. BRIGADE STRUCTURE A brigade will usually have 3-6 UNITS (or more or less) under command in its area of responsibility in order to pursue its mission. It may have zero if it is inactive or being formed. Formations exist to accomplish specific missions and are allocated units in order to meet those specific requirements. Military missions vary, so generalizing about formation structure is difficult. A mountain warfare brigade has a completely different mission from an armored brigade for desert operations or an airborne brigade ("regiment" in some armies) or an amphibious brigade ("expeditionary unit" for some marines), but the basic structure is defined by the same command and control and operational principles in all brigades or "brigade-sized" forces. Operational principles dictate that under "fire and maneuver" doctrine, no UNIT or SUB-UNIT can maneuver in contact without fire support from another UNIT or SUB-UNIT. Command and control generally rests of the "T6 Principle", that more than six subordinate UNITS become increasingly diffcult to control and use effectively; for example, you might think it useful to have ten arms in a boxing match but four of your arms would probably get in the way or not be used - the maximum for a task is six arms. Any task requiring more and you call for a friend or another brigade to help. Therefore the structure of a brigade in outline is simple. 3-4 Combat UNITS - tank (350+ men), infantry (550-850 men); each with 3-4 combat SUB-UNITS (50-120), 1 HQ and 1+ support SUB-UNITS (100-150+). 1 artillery UNIT (400+ men) comprising 3 cannon SUB-UNITS (one supporting each of the Combat UNITS), HQ and support SUB-UNITS. 1 engineer UNIT (650-1000) comprising SUB-UNITS of combat engineer, heavy engineer, bomb disposal, water drilling/purification, bulk fuel and airfield/helicopter construction SUB -UNITS. 1 Brigade Head Quarters UNIT including 1 signals SUB-UNIT (linking HQ with all UNITS and with DIVISION), HQ defense platoon, plus operations, intelligence, personnel and logistics, welfare/morale/religious departments, plus transport, helicopter, specifically for the HQ. 1 reconnaissance SUB-UNIT (HQ tasked) 1 air defense artillery SUB-UNIT (at HQ) 1 logistics UNIT (650-1000 men) in charge of the maintenance and movement of the BRIGADE WAR RESERVE of ammunition, diesel/gas/oil/avaition fuel, spare weapons, spare radios, antennas and batteries, clothing, water, rations, vehicle parts; plus light/medium transport for ammunition, bulk fuel/oil, water; plus vehicle/equipment recovery teams and repair workshops with vehicle mechanics, armorers, electronics engineers; and any heavy vehicles for road transport of armored vehicles. 1 medical SUB UNIT comprising casualty recovery teams, surgical teams and evacuation SUB-UNITS. Includes medical and dental (face injuries) and plastic surgery, plus psychiatrists. 1 Reinforcement Holding sub-unit (strength varies by number of reinforcements). 1 Records Office (pay, benefits, transfer, discharge - includes burial and graves registration team. 1 Military Police SUB-UNIT for traffic control, guarding prisoners of war, dog patrols Key differences between the UNIT and BRIGADE. units do:- (1) NOT carry supplies for more than 24-48 hours; even in a light infantry brigade, the Brigade War Reserve equals 1 tonne per man. (2) NOT have ALL supporting arms "under command"; artillery SUB-UNITs, for example, may be attached to an infantry battalion for long periods, but is not part of the infantry UNIT; ditto tanks, engineers; (3) NOT have medium or long range communications or means to handle heavy communications traffic or conduct electronic warfare (direction finding, traffic analysis) (4) NOT have surgical teams; or psychiatrists (5) NOT have heavy workshops; or transport or supplies or bomb disposal or water production or bulk fuel handling; (6) NO capacity to hold prisoners of war - only the brigade has "cages" It is at Brigade level that 1 Combat soldier is supported by 1 support soldier. Couldn't function without it. And it is Brigade which commands ALL the UNITS in battle, directing the Brigade batle very closely. Brigade is the closest point at which all the army's departments interact to achieve the objective via the "operation". For specific operations the Brigade will form Battlegroups of chosen UNITS and SUB-UNITS to do a specific job; mixing infantry, armor, arty, helos, engineers. But it is brigade who decide this for it is Brigades "Area of Responsibility"; this is not the job o UNITs in their Forward Defended Localities - their "boxes on the map". Anyone else want to dispute this? Pick a few holes? I mean I can go on all day and night if you want. I guess not many have had the experience I have to see these things in action. From Vancouver to Vistula, from San Francisco to Seville, from Nashville to Naples, from Boston to Bergen, from Lisbon to London and from Birmingham (UK or US) to Belgrade:- the above is THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND THE ONLY TRUTH ACCORDING TO NATO.

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Sam RE:Worcester 10/15/2004 9:24:16 PM

Evil man, making me read through MCRP 5-2A (FM 101-5-1) stuff. Am I correct then that the USMC Marine Expeditionary Unit is the smallest organization that has every thing that a Bde has? Just on a smaller level. What is a MEU? (Commence humming the Marines Hymn) The (MEU) is the smallest of the MAGTFs. Together with U.S. Navy forces, this team serves as the nation?s forward deployed, quick-response team, capable of accomplishing numerous missions around the globe. (No matter what those nuts that jump out of planes say) The MEU, directed by a single commander, is comprised of about 2,100 Marines and Sailors, embarked aboard three ships configured as an Amphibious Ready Group (ARG), which is commanded by an Amphibious Squadron (PHIBRON). The MEU?s major elements are the Command Element (CE), the Ground Combat Element (GCE), the Aviation Combat Element (ACE), and the Combat Service Support Element (CSSE). The CE is comprised of the commanding officer (Col) and supporting staff -- about 200 Marines and Sailors. It provides the command and coordination essential for effective planning and execution of operations. In addition, the MEU CE is reinforced with specialized detachments, such as reconnaissance and surveillance elements(Force Recon), radio reconnaissance and electronic countermeasure teams, intelligence and counterintelligence assets, and advanced communications. The GCE is commanded by a LtCol. About 1,200 strong, it is based on the infantry battalion. It is reinforced with an artillery battery, amphibious assault vehicle platoon, combat engineer platoon, light armored reconnaissance company, an M1A1 Tank platoon and a reconnaissance platoon(Div recon). And they all belong to him vice the MEU. Roughly 350 Marines and Sailors of a Marine Medium Helicopter Squadron provide air support for the MEU.Commanded by a LtCol. The composition of the ACE is based on the tactical situation, the MAGTF?s mission and size, and space limitations within the ARG. A typical composit squadron is comprised of 4 CH-53E Super Stallion, 12 CH-46E Sea Knight, 1 UH-1N Huey and 4 AH-1W Super Cobra helicopters, and 6 AV-8B Harrier jets. The ACE also has two KC-130 transport planes on standby in the US. The ACE includes air traffic control, air defense, aircraft maintenance/support and aviation logistics/supply capabilities. The final major element of the MEU is the MEU Service Support Group. Commanded by a LtCol. About 300 Marines and Sailors of the MSSG provide combat support, specifically supply; maintenance; transportation; explosive ordnance disposal; military police; water production and distribution; engineering; medical and dental services; fuel storage and distribution; POW handling, disbursing and other services to the deployed MEU. The MSSG gives the MEU the ability to support itself for 15 days in austere expeditionary environments. The air-ground task -force concept is designed to thoroughly exploit the combat power inherent in air and ground assets by closely integrating them into a single force. The MEU brings what it needs to sustain itself from the sea for the rapid accomplishment of the mission or to pave the way for follow-on forces. The size and composition of the MEU make it well suited for amphibious operations; security operations; noncombatant evacuation operations; humanitarian assistance operations; and special operations. Contingent upon "real world" situations, prior to deployment each MEU is thoroughly trained in 23 unique capabilities during a fast-paced, six month work-up cycle that includes three-to- five at-sea training periods. The MEU is not designated "Special Operations Capable" until it has successfully completed a rigorous, comprehensive certification process. (Secure from humming) See I told you US Marines were different. You should see some of the discussions with foreign commanders that grasp the Bde concept but cannot believe a MEU has the same type of assets. Or that the MEU commander is more referee between the 3 LtCols. The person that runs the show (with the MEUs thumbs up) depends on the mission. If its a humanitarian assist type mission then the CSSD commander has the ball. He will request portions of the CE and ACE to support him. And they will be chopped to him.

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