Command Sereants Major-time to go

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title Newest to Oldest

Pages: 1 2

mike_golf RE:Command Sergeants Major & First Sergeants 7/8/2004 10:45:44 PM

doggtag wrote: "there are also times when these upper ranks also must open their mouth and QUESTION some of the orders they've been given." I'm assuming you were a junior NCO, E-6 or lower, at best based on the commentary I'm hearing. The incident you relate, well I really have no comment. I wasn't the first sergeant and I wasn't in the unit so I'll refrain from any commentary. I do need to ask you a question though, except for the incident you relate, how do you know that the NCO's and officers telling you to do something didn't open their mouth and say something? As a matter of principle I never, ever allowed my NCO's or enlisted soldiers to know if I disagreed with my commander. I would tell him so in his office or mine, behind closed doors, right up to the point where it went from discussion to an order. Then, assuming it was a legal order, whether I agreed or not, I carried out my orders and ensured that my soldiers never knew whether I agreed with the order or not. That was my duty as an NCO in the military. Any NCO who ever does differently is behaving immaturely and irresponsibly. Before juding those senior NCO's because you thought their orders were silly or wrong or whatever, consider what I'm saying here.

Quote Reply

doggtag RE:Command Sergeants Major & First Sergeants 7/9/2004 8:08:39 AM

mike, I agree with you. I don't question every order given by my superiors. But under certain stressful situations (combat) some leaders prove that they are simply not as effective leaders as they were under "peacetime" conditions. When I went through PLDC, one of the things they taught us at the time (1992) was that we junior NCOs were extensions of the senior leaders. This could entail anything from seeing their leadership and commands carried out down through the lower ranks, to being their "eyes and ears" and presenting up additional input on certain scenarios that they may not have considered (like if a junior NCO finds a more effecient or productive use of the soldiers). Chain of Command works both ways: orders come down, but when input goes back up, it can ehnance the leaders' abilities to more effectively lead. And I agree about the whole lawful order/unlawful order argument: before we deployed for Eanduring Freedom back in 2002, we had training and more training on such things as ROE, Use of Force, anti-terror tactics, bomb searches, urban tactics, and a score of other additional battlefields enhancing classes. The problem being, when you get senior leaders who were in meeting instead of receiving all this extra training suddenly find themselves in a hostile environment trying to command the junior soldiers in a way contradictory to the training they just received weeks earlier, it can effectively prove detrimental to the troops when they see the competence level of their leaders (and their leaders don't want to accept the additional input from the junior troops). Yes, my current leaders are considerably more effective and more deserving of the rank and position. But those of us who deployed two years ago are still well aware that sometimes the weakest link in the Chain can be at the top. It should not be "out of line" for a junior NCO to suggest a more favorable course of action that the senior leaders may not have been aware was available..

Quote Reply

AlbanyRifles RE:Command Sergeants Major & First Sergeants 7/12/2004 11:40:29 AM

DT Not to appear to be a tag team with MG, but I have to ask what kind of unit your are in. Also, when you refer to senior leaders, are your referring to brigade and higher or are you talking company/battalion. Not trying to argue semantics here, just the military terminology usually refers to senior leaders as at the brigade or higher level. Are there incompetent leaders at all levels? Sure. I won't pretend there aren't. But be careful of blanket statements. I also ask, did anyone goto the battalion CSM or battalion commander during open door policy hours over this commander? Did you go to the IG? Do you in fact know the 1SG hadn't spoken to someone or the XO?

Quote Reply

doggtag RE:Command Sergeants Major & First Sergeants 7/18/2004 2:02:02 PM

I was debating just how much to reply to this without transgressing the "say nothing" orders from the courts-martial, so I'll trust it to leave out names and unit numbers. I was in a maintenance unit that performed both forward support and rear echelon repair services, everything and anything electronics (radios, NVGs, designators, GPS, etc). Yes, there was leadership incompetence at several levels, most of which seemed to be, IMHO, buddy slaps and high-fives for whoever was scoring with whichever females. As far as my involvement with reporting anything to the proper personnel, several of us who knew these things were going on were told, flat out, "it might be in our best interests to keep quiet about things going on within the company." Some would call me and a few others a "snitch", but the behavior was proving detrimental to the unit, because it was interfering with some people's abilities to perform the job they were deployed to do (and some of them were getting preferrential treatment). We all learned the hard lesson that just because someone carries a certain rank on their shoulder during "peacetime", it does not always mean they are just as effective a leader during "wartime". In the end, it was not I personally who spoke to the right people, but I was associated with those who did. We were absolved of any wrongdoings in stepping outside our chain of command, but regardless, several people within the company still thought it was OK to look down their noses at us for ratting out our "buddies" (who themselves could not adhere to the rules). The reporting individuals went to another battalion entirely (actually, I suggested taking it to the chaplain first), most likely because our company CO was at the time our battalion CO's "favored protege". It was reminded during the courts martial that it is NOT a commander's prerogative (sp?) to rewrite the UCMJ and Army Code of Conduct as the CO, XO (a warrant) and 1SGT saw fit (fraternization, etc). In the end, the 1SGT took the biggest fall ( although he was not the one doing the screwing, but probably because he already was at his 20+, and the other 2 still had several years left to "undo their deeds and prove their worth" ), and the CO and chief were little more than fined and reprimanded (a slap on the wrist, as they still maintain respective positions within whichever units back in PA, last time I heard). Also, the females who instigated the situations the most were made out to be some innocent victims, even though the remainder of the company knew just how they really behaved. I'll rememer in the future to equate "senior" leaders with brigade and higher personnel, but I was initially meaning the higher-ups in the company. Not having a lot of legal training myself, nor being fully versed on every UCMJ code, paragraph, and line, I can't really say the courts martial was "fair" or not. But then again, some would say, "who are you to question such authority?". The thing is, if we hadn't questioned our authority, things could have gotten considerably worse for our unit and its personnel. We are learning once more that the "Nuremberg defense" of "I was only obeying orders" doesn't fly in many cases, like this whole prisoner abuse thing. My argument is, that any CO or leader must continue to PROVE their leadership, not just demand it because their rank on their collar says they deserve respect. Me personally, IO say if the lowly PVT or Spc committed a bad act, let their @ss suffer for it. But if it was actually the leaders that did the deed, hang them: don't make the unit suffer for it..

Quote Reply

AlbanyRifles Commanders' Malfeasance 7/22/2004 2:29:43 PM

Doggtagg Understand your situtation and I understand your difficulty in addressing the problem. Whiel the 1SG may have been allowed to retire, trust me, the CO & Xo both have had their careers ended. Just having to face a court martial guarantees a poor OER....that in turn just about guarantees that they won't see another promotion. The WO may be able to make it to 20 and retire (he/she can ask to revert to NCO rank and finish their 20) but they will go no higher. The CO won't see major and will be forced out. You have found the hard way that the right thing is not always the popular thing. What you should be proud of is that you showed more leadership than those senior to you. I was not well liked as a commander....but I was well respected. That made for a better unit, IMHO. So I go back to my earliest statement/questions... What is wrong with Command Sergeants Major?

Quote Reply

ambush RE:Commanders' Malfeasance 7/23/2004 2:08:42 PM

>So I go back to my earliest statement/questions... What is wrong with Command Sergeants Major?< I repeat: How helpful or useful are Command Sergeants Major and First Sergeants (Sergeants Major and First Sergeant in the Marine Corps) now days? Do they really serve any purpose other than being super Admin chiefs and to assist the XO with logistics during war time. I know much is made about him being the COs advisor on enlisted matters and supervising training ad nauseum but in these matters are they not really more than obstacles to progress? Consider the following: The US Army once did a poll of enlisted personnel (in the 80s if I remember) one of the questions asked was what they thought the primary duties of the CSM were and Police call topped the list. We have all known that excellent CSM or 1stSgt but I think they were more the exception than the rule. For every good one of them there were a dozen others who made their primary focus on things like dog tags. There was one who was known to obsess about them and had an open invitation for folks to check and see if he was wearing his at any time. They have created what I consider real problems. The NCO support channel is one example. It is in effect a secondary chain of command. Is there really anything that goes on in a unit that is strictly NCO business now days? I am from the old school but times change. When I first joined the Corps you hardly saw and officer except when you went to the field, during certain inspections or were in trouble. I had a First Sergeant who did not believe in bothering the CO with NJPs/Article 15s except for serious offenses like theft or drug use. Anything else he handled with things like extra duty or a nice couple of weekend 12 mile road marches. Of course all of that was not strictly legal but he figured why ruin careers over petty stuff. But all of this did not mean the Skipper and Platoon Commanders did not know what was going on. He allowed the First Sergeant to function this way. I was amazed how much the CO knew what was going on when he asked you some relatively personnel question during and inspection or in the field. But any activity like that now days would cost the CO and the First Sergeant their careers. Somebody also screwed up and a few Sergeants Majors got college degrees at the Sergeant Majors Academy, they liked it so much that they thought every NCO should have one. At one time college education meant more for promotion than Ranger school. Now what do you want in a Squad leader, one who has Ranger school under his belt or a degree in General Studies? Would it not be better to make ALL E-8s and E-9s duties more MOS specific, like Master Gunners? Better still eliminate the problem of having so many of them ready for retirment and make them Warrant officers and select them out of your top NCOs with 8 to 12 years experience. Eliminate the E-8 and E-9 pay grades and corresponding ranks all together. Are there any duties being handled by the Sergeants Major or First Sergeants that cannot be handled by good Squad Leaders, Platoon Sergeants and a Company Gunny (E-7)? Instead of Making First Sergeant and Command Sergeants Major a rank make it an assigned position perhaps held by a Senior SFC/Gunnery Sergeant or even one of those newly created Warrant Officers.

Quote Reply

AlbanyRifles Sergeants Major & First Sergeants- Ambush 7/23/2004 2:30:15 PM

I admit I come to this with the point of view of a commissioned officer. But what you are proposing are fixes to a system not the dismantling of a system. I completely agree if there is a problem, fix it. But as I said in an earlier post theing, the Command Sergeant Major of 3rd Battalion, 15th Infantry proved his value at OBJ CURLY outside of Baghdad when he helped a very junior captain make the correct decisions in fighting that battle. I agree that I have met some duds, but fix the problem I say, not destroy the system.

Quote Reply

1 2