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Subject: dodgy but effective
beersheba    2/29/2004 10:45:05 PM
I see there has been a lot of discussion on military leaders who have commanded large formations. How about effective commanders at company, battalion and brigade level. The bloke I'd like to throw up first was a brutal man, many would say he was a monster but in a way he was effective. SS-Oberfuher Dr Oskar Dirlewanger led the 36th waffen division (although it was never equal to a proper SS division in strength). He ravaged Warsaw and took the partisans on in eastern russia. Ok, most of the time he wasn't fighting front line Red Army units nor did he ever take on the Poms and Yanks but remember what he was working with; A collection of scumbags and criminals who weren't anything like the classic SS divisions. He won the Knight's Cross, among other awards, and also fought in The Great War and was a member of the Condor Legion. He was also wounded at least 13 times in battle. Despite the crimes they committed they were an effective military unit fighting a cunning enemy in the partisans. I think he was an effective commander, even a good one, although his behaviour at times was beastly. Gentlemen, you thoughts on other mid-level commanders or your thoughts on Dr Oskar please.
 
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gf0012-aus    RE:dodgy but effective   2/29/2004 11:11:38 PM
Counter offer: Otto Skorzeny - in essence, its arguable that he is the father of spec forces operations. IIRC, never lost any battle he engaged in, developed processes that lay the foundation for commando field work, ruthlessly efficient.
 
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sentinel28a    RE:dodgy but effective   3/1/2004 1:39:29 AM
I'd trace specforce ops back to Roger's Rangers or any of the other irregular forces of the 18th century, but there's no denying Skorzeny was "commando extraordinaire." As for Dirlewanger, I don't know much about him, though if he was in charge during the initial "liquidation" of the Warsaw Ghetto, he didn't do so well--the Jewish militias stopped the SS cold for awhile. And I'm not so sure I would limit the title of thugs and criminals solely to his unit...that kind of describes the SS as a whole, actually.
 
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beersheba    RE:dodgy but effective   3/1/2004 4:14:11 PM
sentinel28a, dirlewanger and his mates weren't involved in the Jewish uprising of 43. They didn't hit Warsaw until the Polish uprising in 44. As for Skorzeny, yes he was a brilliant commander but just on gf0012-aus comments, do you think the operation he led involving the 2000-odd english speaking germans in american uniform who operated behind allied lines was that effective?
 
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sentinel28a    RE:dodgy but effective   3/1/2004 5:10:23 PM
My apologies on Dirlewanger. When you said "he devastated Warsaw" and mentioned he was SS, I put two and two together...I wasn't aware the SS was involved with the fight against the Polish Resistance. Even Skorzeny warned that the Bulge operation would be unsuccessful. They did manage to cause panic, but that was about it. However, Skorzeny pulled off some incredible operations elsewhere--the Gran Sasso raid to get Mussolini out of Italy is one, or the kidnapping of the Hungarian prime minister. Skorzeny also had a plan to kill Churchill in Tehran, and got close. I doubt he was Mr. Congeniality, though.
 
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beersheba    RE:dodgy but effective   3/1/2004 9:04:58 PM
I guess Dirlewanger is one of those charcters from the war that not a lot is known about except for the many war crimes his command committed. There were actually rumours that he made it to Egypt after the war and worked alongside Skorzeny in helping them set up internal security. But I think it's safe to assume he was beaten to death by polish troops after he was picked up by the French. I agree with you on Skorzeny and the op to rescue Mussolini, pretty ballsy effort. Interesting to note how he got the scar, in a duel
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:dodgy but effective   3/3/2004 3:27:11 PM
Considering the fact that Skorzeny was instrumental in setting up the Nazi escape pipeline to Argentina, and was Perons chief of security, it's possible that Dirlewanger made it to Argentina. Egypt was said to resemble small german/nazi enclave after ww2.
 
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Thomas    RE:dodgy but effective   3/5/2004 8:08:28 AM
As far as I know Dirlewanger was the penalty unit of the SS. Definately not nice people. it's news to me, that Skorzeny worked for Peron. I think they still celebrate Der Führers bithday in Windhoek Namibia - or so I've heard. Another thing about facists: They do have a thing about coluored shirts and crooked crosses: The German Nazies were the Brownshirts The Italian were the Blackshirts The Irish were the Blueshirts Los Peonistas in Argentine were the "descamisados" - those without shirts Any more colour variants?????? Most of them pretty ugly colours. The Germans had the Swastika. The Hungarians had the arrowcross. The Danish had the suncross- whatever that may be.
 
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gf0012-aust    dodgy but effective - skorzeny - thomas   3/5/2004 8:32:37 AM
Thomas, managed to find some web sources on Otto. He must have been pretty damn close to old Eva. In 1952, she turned over the assets of the Evita Peron Foundation ($100 million) to Skorzeny. "Ten days after the war's end Skorzeny gave himself up to the Americans who had launched a massive search for ?The Most Dangerous Man in Europe'. He was put on trial held prisoner until July 27th 1948. It was on this day that in true commando fashion he escaped. His whereabouts after his escape remained a mystery as Russian agents, Jewish organizations hunted for him all over Europe but the ex-commando was not in Europe. In fact he had fled to Argentina and became close to Juan and Eva Peron who was interested in recovering all the German gold and money from the days of the Reich. Otto Skorzeny organized the Police into the most brutal in South America and also acted as Eva Peron`s bodyguard foiling at least one attempt on her life. His post-war activities included his service as an adviser to Gamal Nasser, dictator in Egypt." link
 
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DragonReborn    RE:Rogers Rangers   3/5/2004 9:42:02 AM
I didnt know much about Rogers Rangers but I did some digging and found the history is quite interesting. His rangers may have been instrumental in the starting of the first battle with the British, while Rogers having been abandoned by the US as a feared spy, went on to set up the Kings Rangers and foster the tradition within the British Military. -------------------------------------------------- link Robert Rogers was a colonial farmer recruited from New Hampshire in 1755 by the British for service in the French and Indian War (1754-63). He created a unit called Rogers' Rangers in 1756 (the first Rangers), and by 1758 the British placed him in charge of all colonial Ranger companies. The Rangers wore distinctive green outfits and developed tactics called "Rogers' Ranging Rules", which the British considered unconventional. These tactics are still in use by Rangers today, including the Green Berets. Rogers' Rangers were most famous for their engagement with the Abenaki St Francis Indians, who lived midway between Montreal and Quebec. These Abenaki were credited with the deaths of over 600 colonists during the duration of the war. After the Indians attacked a retreating British unit under a flag of truce, Rogers led a hand-picked force of 200 Rangers to destroy the Indian's village. Rogers' Rangers took part in General James Wolfe's expedition against Quebec and in the Montreal campaign of 1760. The Rangers were later sent by General Jeffrey Amherst to take possession of the northwestern posts, including Detroit. In 1763 the Rangers were in the West again, during Pontiac's War (1763-64), and they participated in the Battle of Bloody Bridge After the war, Rogers went to England to write of his accounts. In 1766 he asked King George III to fund an expedition from the Mississippi River to the Pacific. The King refused, but granted him command of the northwest post called Michilimackinac. From there, Rogers conducted his own expedition anyways. His ambition caused him to be sent to England on the charges of treason, but he was acquitted. Historians believe the spark of the American Revolution may have begun in the ranks of Rogers' Rangers. One of America's best officers during the Revolution was John Stark, who had been Rogers' Lieutenant. The British had treated the Rangers poorly during the French and Indian War. In 1775 former members of Rogers' Rangers fired upon the British at Concord and Lexington. Rogers returned to America to join the Revolution when it started. George Washington refused his offer of help, because he feared that Rogers might be a loyalist spy. Outraged by this, Rogers openly joined the British and organized and commanded the Queen's Rangers, which saw service in areas around New York City, and later created the King's Rangers.
 
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Thomas2    RE:Rogers Rangers gf0012-aus   3/13/2004 3:59:43 PM
That is weird: You found a Danish web ref. One noone has to be ashamed of visiting. Thank You for drawing my attention to it.
 
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