Could Germany and the Axis powers have Won the Second World War?

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puffngrunt RE:Could Germany and the Axis powers have Won the Second World War? 10/3/2004 3:24:39 PM

I hope you're kidding about Rommel. There were plenty of better German generals, von Manstien for one,Guderian for another. Rommel has a good press in the west because he ignored some really hateful orders from Hitler about rounding up Jews and other undesirables because he was in Africa where the Gestapo couldn't get its hands on him. As to getting the Afrika Korps more supplies, he was getting everything that could sent--but the failure to take Malta meant the Brits were sinking all the transports before they arrived. Back to Rommel not being top drawer--maybe he was and maybe he wasn't--but his staff officer in Africa in charge of supply was only a major--so how important did Rommel really think that function was?

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puffngrunt RE:Could Germany and the Axis powers have Won the Second World War? 10/3/2004 3:27:34 PM

I hope you're kidding about Rommel. There were plenty of better German generals, von Manstien for one,Guderian for another. Rommel has a good press in the west because he ignored some really hateful orders from Hitler about rounding up Jews and other undesirables because he was in Africa where the Gestapo couldn't get its hands on him. As to getting the Afrika Korps more supplies, he was getting everything that could be sent--but the failure to take Malta meant the Brits were sinking all the transports from Italy before they arrived in Bizerta or later, Tobruk. Back to Rommel not being top drawer--maybe he was and maybe he wasn't--but his staff officer in Africa in charge of supply was only a lousy major--so how important do you suppose Rommel really thought that function was?

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bsl RE:puffngrunt 10/3/2004 9:31:10 PM

1)As it was, Germany came withing a hair's breadth of taking Moscow. With the additional assumptions you grant, Germany has a clear win. Some issues you ignore are how badly shaken the whole Soviet system was, at the nadir, how badly they needed new manpower, and how nearly they lost most of their industrial capabilities. Add a little more, as you lay out, and the whole house collapses. 2)You must kidding about Rommel. He was respected because he led what was one of the most startlingly successful military campaigns in history, through the Ardennes, in 1940. If you doubt the level of amazement involved, do some reading about how the French and British commanders felt. If you, somehow, doubt the level of the accomplishment, then reflect that it changed not only the course of the European War, but affected the destiny of a continent, then of the rest of the world. The whole Cold War was in real terms the result of Rommel's breakthrough and exploitation in 1940. Some feel that qualifies as a "major impact". And, because, in the North Africa campaign, he showed mastery of what seemed, both at the time, and in retrospect, of one of the cleanest examples of a war of manuever in the mechanical age ever known. This was largely due to circumstances, but it allowed Rommel to be evaluated in terms of the new, manuever warfare, without side issues, and, in this, military commanders who looked at his actions from then to the present tend to feel he showed real mastery.

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fall out RE:puffngrunt 10/4/2004 3:20:15 AM

hear, hear BSL, for starters, German forces in '41 were within sight of the Kremlin and about 2 weeks off taking, or at least, beseiging the city, and when you bear in mind the operations in africa and the balkans postponed op barborossa a couple of months, it makes for an interesting 'what if'. as far as im concerned, Germany didnt' need to invade Britain, all Hitler needed to do was to take heed of Donitz's advice for starting with 200 u-boats which would choke the living crap out of Britain (when normally Germany started off with about 30 u-boats and still inflicted some serious damage), this would then mean the luftwaffe would be stronger, the army would be also and the germans could start their russian campaign earlier AND with greater, and better equiped/trained wermacht which equals game over for stalin and moscow and hence the soviet union (IMO a coup would've taken over and negotiated a peace treaty with the germans). romell in north africa, just for one example, was ALWAYS fighting against an enemy who had more tanks, more troops, more air support, complete naval support and generals who knew exactly when and where his supplies were coming in thru Ultra, and yet a couple of times he got very close to the Suez Canal!

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raptor RE:puffngrunt 10/4/2004 8:16:17 PM

IF Hitler had held off of declaring war with the United States then Germany could have won in Europe (Im including European Russia) and North Africa after that though he would not have been able to go many places except for the middle east and africa but since it would have taken him several years to conquer these areas, which would have given the US time to obliterate the Japanese with most of the strength going to the Pacific instead of the other way around, the rest of the world (USA, Canada, India, rebuilt China, Australia, possibly a Russian government surviving in Siberia) would then be solidly united against Germany so when Hitler started to attack again he would have quickly found nuclear weapons going off in the Rhineland from planes based at least as close as Iceland because the US would not have hesitated to nuke them no matter what many people will say then they did not regard it as anything other than a really big bomb that they could use to help quickly end the war

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ozigrunt RE:Could Germany and the Axis powers have Won the Second World War? 10/4/2004 9:34:26 PM

Military power is easily calculated; it is manpower and industrial capacity. The outcome of WW2 was predictable in 1918 using the above. And guess what, it held true. (Sorry I haven?t got a reference although I?ve seen the data). Military power can be enhanced by, leadership, doctrine and technological advantage however this will only alter the outcome when there is not a big discrepancy between manpower and industrial capacity. So in terms of military outcome Germany was never going to militarily defeat the combined military power of the allies - it never had the manpower or industrial capacity from day one. Their initial success was based on surprise (geo-political, strategic, operational and tactical - i.e. leadership) and doctrine (they only had minor technological advantage despite common misconception to the contrary ? mainly radio, which was mainly doctrine anyway). Although it would have been possible that the allies could have dropped the ball and lost, this would have been an unsound assumption by the German high command. Although you can fault the German conduct of the war (the strategic, operational and tactical) this was mainly the interference and mistrust of Hitler), it could be argued that General for General, soldier for soldier, they outfought their opponents. It is also argued by the apologist and the Romanics that the German military fought with one hand tried behind their back, namely outnumbered and without sufficient supplies of all kinds (only made worst by the policy of diverting the limited resources into project designed to gain a war winning technological edge - the wonder weapons). Ah derh! An objective student of military science could have predicted that in 1918 or 1938. And the outcome would have been the same if the war had been delayed until 1944 as the German military high command wanted. As the saying goes, amateurs (apologist and Romanics) talk tactics professional (pragmatists) talk logistics. The only other way the Germans could have won is through politics or diplomacy ? basically divide and conquer. However with a megalomaniac for a leader and with public policies of expansion of German at the expense of its neighbors, calling itself ?The Master Race? and calling it neighbors sub-human I think there was very little chance of diplomatic success. The other question is ?what do you mean ?win the war?? If war is the extension of policy and the policy was to occupy ?lebensraum? in the East I doubt they could have achieved it. They may have militarily defeated their neighbors but I doubt they could have occupied and subjugated all of their occupied lands. The summary; Germany could never have won WW2, it was up to the Allies to lose it. Thankfully, despite failings and mistakes, they were up to the task.

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Ehran RE:Fragmented thoughts--Ehran 10/5/2004 11:58:26 AM

True, if you assume that they would try to secure completely all the logistical umbilicals. But, the Germans had considered island hopping, ie securing main pivot points and then flying in more bullets and beans and then centrifugally expanding out at each point. that's an interesting idea in theory but i really doubt the luftwaffe had enough transport aircraft to keep a single armoured div in supply much less the eastern front.

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fall out RE:Could Germany and the Axis powers have Won the Second World War? 10/6/2004 9:30:41 AM

well, then if you count the Germany, post Anschless (no idea on the spelling?!), she had over 100 million inhabitants with the standard of living easily matching the likes of France and Britain, one on one, NOBODY (except the US) could even hope to defeat Germany, esp with their revolutionary (note i didnt say evolutionary) tactics and superior equipment, add in the fact that they had the countries of Norway, Poland, Chech's, France, Belgium, Holland, etc which were able to construct munitions etc, Germany easily had the capacity to take out Britain and Russia and then deal with the US one on one (albeit with Italy and Japan). U-boats had the potential to choke the living crap out of Britain, as it is they almost did with vastly smaller numbers than what was originally proposed (by Donitz), their armies were poised to take out Moscow in '41 which means the hub of their transportation system taken out, not to mention the majority of the statesmen, etc that kept the country running, however as you alluded to, Hitler, the all knowing corporal, diverted several divisions to army group south and north. either way, if Germany had defeated her enemies (incl the UK/USSR) they would have no problem in quelling a few grumpy farmers with shotguns, ex-servicemen, etc in their occupied lands, esp with how they treated their enemies, esp jews, slav's, etc

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worldbuilder RE:fallout 10/7/2004 5:52:04 AM

whats this Anschless? what's it mean? just a quick question here, as a german: does the rest of the world still fear us germans? some recent comments by some canadian friends got me thinking about this. many young people here in germany are not at all ok with having to pay all these reparations, and all the immigrants here. i never saw anything like this in canada, where i lived for 9 years. does the world still fear somekind of german danger? would german wmd be too scary for the world? what about german force projection, like a carrier. because if so, then there is a serious disconnect here, with many young germans seeing this as injust and a breach of our sovereignty, and quite aggressive about it.

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fall out RE:fallout 10/7/2004 7:15:27 AM

the anshlass (spelling?) was the annexing of Austria into Greater Germany, which then brought 100 million people of German origin into one country. no ppl dont fear, some may, esp older ppl, but i think most ppl realise that Germans aren't the enemy anymore, it's the french (just kidding! ;)), Chinese ("peaceful rise" - haha)and Terrorists (= scum). However, Germany is more than capable of arcing up above and beyond than any other European power (Russia has the numbers, but...) and apart from the likes of Japan, and the US, their 'capacity' is un-rivaled. im interested though, as a young German (im a young aussie btw), do you really believe other westerners fear Germans?? What exactly did your canadian friends ask? if you dont mind me asking.

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