Could Germany and the Axis powers have Won the Second World War?

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ace RE:Could Germany and the Axis powers have Won the Second World War? 4/3/2004 12:37:41 AM

Hitler attcaking Britain and France was inavable. Hitler wanted revenge on the "November criminals" and that's that. It was a major component of NAZI ideologie.

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Ashley-the-man RE: if Germany guaranteed the integrity of the British empire, 4/20/2004 4:06:12 PM

"The mistake that most people are making here (and I'm only making this allegation because I just had to write a piece of coursework on this!) is the same mistake Britain, France and the USA made in the late 1930s. That is, using logical, military analysis to predict what could happen. Hitler did not do this, Hitler wanted a continual war because it was a part of his philosophy. Hell, if Hitler had thought like that he would never have started WW2 because it was NUTS. " Hitler attacked Poland. That hardly qualifies as starting WWII. The fact that he was not a war footing with his economy was also an indicator that he was not planning a WW. Great Britain and France could have as easily blamed the Poles for not being more accomodating to legitimate German demands and opted out of a war. In the srring of 1940 Hitler would likely have attacked Russia and Britain and France would have not much cared as they did not have any agreements with the Soviets.

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Ehran RE:Could Germany and the Axis powers have Won the Second World War? 4/30/2004 6:55:17 PM

This all means declaring war on Russia in 1944, and defeating her by 46. Once this is done Germany has effectivly won, but this is only the board game. the only fly in the ointment is that stalin was apparently planning to attack the germans pre-emptively in 1942. figured i guess it would take that long to get things organized after his purge of the army.

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grossmufti RE:Could Germany and the Axis powers have Won the Second World War? yes, easily 5/9/2004 6:25:38 PM

I have thought about this for many years now. I think the answer is yes, and for the following reasons (these are the same answers i would have given for the question "why did the axis lose ww2?": Brits, navy: - Hitler hugely under estimated the potential of submarine warfare. Being the megalomaniac he was, he had a fixation un surface capabilities, for he wanted to match Germany's KriegsMarine with the Royal Navy. As a result many resources that could have gone to the U-Boot waffe were allocated to the KriegsMarine. The result was that Germany had a decent surface fleet at the outbreak of war, though that still was clearly undergunned when compared to the Royal Navy, so Hitler gained no strategic advantage from the KriegsMarine. On the other hand, Doenitz, who requested 100 U-Boote to begin the war with, only had about 40 at the outbreak of war. Doenitz's U-Boot waffe came very close to defeating the Brits; my estimate is that the Brits would have been defeated if Doenitz had got the numbers he requested, in stead of all those surface ships that were produced instead. Brits, Battle of Britain: During the Battle of Britain in 1940 the Brits came very close to defeat, because the Luftwaffe focused on the destruction of Fighter Command. But as we see throughout the war, Hitler was a leader that was destined to lose the war, because: He was not able to formulate a Strategic objective and stick with it; Instead of keeping focused on the (well conceived) objective of the destruction of Fighter Command, Hitler ordered Goering to divert the Luftwaffe's attention to British cities after Churchill had ordered a bombing of Berlin. This divertion saved Britain, as is well recognized by Churchill himself; he famously said about the Battle of Britain: "Never in the History of the world, did so many, owe so much, to so few." He realised that if Germany would have succeeded in the defeat of Fighter Command (and we know from memoires that the Germans came within days of doing so) Britain would have come under the mercy of Germany's bombers and ultimately; invasion. It doesn't matter if the invasion of Britain would have been a complete succes. As long as Britain was destroyed as a functional Indutrialized, fighting, nation, there would have been no need for the Germans to defend the entire west coast of Europe. They could defend the entire continent from Britain. Soviets, Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad: Hitler's inability to stick to "the plan" would prove most desastrous in Russia. 1. Army Group North's (AGN) strategic objective was Leningrad and in 1941 it was the only Army Group to come within grasp of it's objective. The first few months of Barbarossa saw AGN smashing through the Soviet defences and it's armor formations came knocking at the door of Stalingrad. And while Hitler is known for his ruthlessnes regarding his own soldiers, in 1941/1942, he actually was afraid to commit his prized armor formations to a fight, even if it might be a war winning one; AGN requested permission to assault Leningrad, Hitler refused. He wanted the slower non-motorized formations to catch up with motorized ones before launching an attack; he didn't want his tanks to fight in an urban environment. While this might sound like decent tactical thinking; tanks are vulnerable in cities; it is rubbish. The Strategic goal was Leningrad, sacrificing tanks is no problem if you can reach that objective by doing so, this holds true even more if you consider that by that time, the Red Army was in disarray, Leningrad was not to be expected to be defended properly. What Hitler achieved by ordering a delay in the assault was that he gave the Soviets enough time to organize their defence of the city; the rest is history. We see the same mistake at Stalingrad; Before the battle was joined, Hitler had the possibility to take Stalingrad with the 4th Panzer Division (or 7th, don't remember). At that time, Stalingrad was virtually undefended. Again, Hitler chose not to commit his armor to take the city, but he decided to clear the Crimean first. Anyone who know his topography, knows that the crimean peninsula can be contained very easily; Hitler could have left the Soviets there, and just clear them out after the Soviets were driven back well behind the Wolga; Just like the russians did with the Kurland peninsula, they did not wait with their advance into Germany to clear those forces, they just contained them and dealt with them at a time of their choosing. After clearing the Crimean, Hitler proceded towards Stalingrad, which was by now turned into a fortress; the rest is History/ Moscow; Moscow was THE strategic objective of Barbarossa. Instead of sticking with that, Hitler changed his priorities about 3 times during the latter half of 1941. This resulted in a crucial delay for Army Group Center, and they would never reach Moscow; How different would things have gone had Hitler been a competent strategist? So to summarize: UK could

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blacksmith RE:Could Germany and the Axis powers have Won the Second World War? yes, easily 5/29/2004 2:04:43 AM

Opportunities lost by the Germans: Had Hitler run through southern France (it's not like anyone was going to resist him) rather than stopping at Paris, he would have been able to look over the border into Spain and convinced Franco of the importance of exerting Spain's claim on Gibraltar. English get driven out of Gibraltar. Straits of Gibraltar closed to British shipping. North Africa and Palistine become untenable for the Brits. Germany's southern flank is secured. Bombing the stupid radar sites on the Channel coast could have saved Herr Hitler from a firey fate. Changing the Enigma code once in a while. Donitz is reputed to have questioned whether the code was compromised, but was assured by the scientists that it could not be broken. When the Germans entered the Soviet Union, many people there regarded them as liberators. Had the Germans capitalized on this sentiment they could have dissolved the Soviet Union and had millions of supporters instead of resistors. Could German have won WW II? Yes. Germany could have conquered all of Europe and dominated Africa. Everything from the Arctic Circle to the Equator, from the Atlantic to the Urals would have been theirs. It would have been impossible to pry Germany out of its place safely ensconced in the very middle if its empire. Could the Axis Powers have won WW II? No. Japan on the other hand was doomed. As an island, it was eventually going to be surrounded and besieged by the mass of US war production. The best they could hope for was dragging things out until the US lost the will to win, but their empire would probably be gone by then.

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Advocate Of REason RE:Could Germany and the Axis powers have Won the Second World War? yes 5/29/2004 5:35:33 PM

The only way I see that the germans could have won was to first attack russia from both sides with japan to get it out of the picture and only then with the italians take western europe.

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doggtag RE:Could Germany and the Axis powers have Won the Second World War? yes 5/30/2004 1:17:35 AM

Had Germany succeeded in taking the majority of Europe, I don't really believe their "Supreme Aryan race" and the ideology of the Third Reich would have accepted any long-term alliance with the "subhuman" asian nations. Germany only allied itself with Japan so Japan could "distract" American military might away from assisting England (and eventually Russia). Yet another one of Hitler's underestimations.

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roadrodent RE:Could Germany and the Axis powers have Won the Second World War? 5/30/2004 2:06:35 AM

Likely that Germany could have won for many of the various "what-if" that have been presented here. My point of view was that Hitler avoid confronting the US directly. In this way the Americans are still in the "Don't involve us in your foriegn wars" mode and all FDR can do is slip Britain and Russia some supplies but not on the level that could be done if one is offically at war. Hitler might tell the Japanese, after Dec 7th, "Look, you started this with us already in a fight. We will give what help we can but we will NOT declare war on the US until we feel the time is right." The US is still, largely, out of the fight in Europe and FDR is left fuming because wants to get in it so bad (FDR pulls his own version of the burning of the Reichstag to get the US into the Europian war?). German High Command and Hitler listen to Rommal and give him the troops and gear to take Egygt and most of the Middle East oil fields. Big moral and logistics blow to the Brits and most of the Med becomes an Axis lake (Suppies, mainly fuel, now denied to Crete and Malta. Most aircraft there now grounded as a result. Suppy runs from Britain now seriously risky to these islands.). With oil suppies pretty much secured German, now, has the fuel to let it's mechinized units get out and run and sets up Rommelto hit Russia from the south while other German units come from the west. If Rommel's forces and the western forces link up an overland route for fuel and lubricates can be set up. Hitler and company play on America's fear of the Soviets and on the Depression. Nazi's push a PR program in the US pointing up the threat Soviet communism poses to Americans. At the same time they propose buying "nonmilitary" items from American companies in the form of trucks, cargo ships, tankers, food, scrap metal, medical suppies, etc. US businesses would want in on that action and there would be pressure to sell as much to the Germans as possible. The trucks to move troop and suppies and the ships to transport oil and cargo. I hope I don't need to explain the need and use of the scrap metal. And medical stuff is ALWAYS in demand during a war. Money flows. Work comes. And the US public is somewhat convinced that this is okay. As is pointed out in an earlier post, Hitler was his, and Germany's, own worst enemy in various respects. His tendency to let his emotions overrule his head had a habit of happeing at the worst times possible. A cooler headed Hitler might have made a big difference in the course of events. As to Japan and its war with the US there isn't a lot Germany can do there. The Japanese Empire is just too far off for the Germans to vbe able to ship any real amount of war suppies to. The best help that could be given that is of the technical type. German radar on Japanese ships and land bases would have helped a lot (Presuming that the rather arrogent Japanese would use it.). This support might have helped but would likely be offset due to the fact that the US would be bringing the full industrial weight to bare on Japan since less material and men would be devoted to Europe (FDR pulling his hair out while, in private, saying something like "Dammit!! It's the Nazis that are more dangerous! Not the Japs!"). Question comes as to what may happen if the u-boats start sinking numbers of US merchantmen (Would the Brits sink US ships carrying cargo to Germany?). The Germans could point out, truthfully, that this is a war zone and that bad things happen. Enter at your own risk. "You'd do just fine if you stayed away. Truely stayed out of the war here." The Isolationists would have bought it, I believe. Odd thing is that the whole thing would be academic even if the Germans got all of Russia west of the Urals, plus Europe, most of North Africa and the Middle East. With all of this the "1000 year reich" would, likely, cease to be after five or six generations. The Germans would have the same problem as Gengis Khan's Mongols after they took a BIG chunk of Asia and some of Europe. Too much territory and not enough people (Mongols or Germans). The Germans, like the Mongols, would be absorbed into the larger surrounding local populations and the "Reich" would cease to be with little fighting occurring. That's some my ramblings on the subject. See what you think. Roadrodent

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blacksmith RE:Could Germany and the Axis powers have Won the Second World War? 5/30/2004 11:15:37 PM

What this topic really comes down to is whether or not one believes in the story about for lack of a nail the war was lost. If the Germans had done something right might have very possibly have kept the Allies from doing something wrong. The loss of the Med would have kept England from getting bled dry by that fool Montgomery. Attacking Europe from the south may have drawn down German forces on the channel, but it drew down allied strength there, too. Staring at details too much gets away from more substantial things like who had the more flexible army, who could sustain war longer, etc.

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blacksmith RE:Could Germany and the Axis powers have Won the Second World War? 5/30/2004 11:23:10 PM

Let's play the game of "If Germany Won": Germany could have beaten England (Churchill's memoirs say he was at times within days of asking for terms) and without England the US would not have had a foothold in Europe. Germany could have beaten the Russians (the generals could have won without Hitler's interference). This would have secured an empire that would have provided a 1,000+ mile buffer in every direction protecting the Fatherland. Would the US have had the will to try to nuke the Nazis out of power? What if the capital was moved to Paris? (Not a fair question) What if the capital was moved to Vienna (Hitler was Austrian)? Would we have been willing to nuke all of Europe to break up the Nazi Empire? If the Germans had the wisdom to leave the US alone while they consolidated their holdings, I believe the answer would be no. Japan on the other hand would not have stood. The US would have eventually built a bridge of steel across the Pacific, wrapped it around the Japanese home islands and strangled them. So Germany owns Europe and dominates Africa. The US secures South America (Monroe Doctrine) and occupies the entire Pacific into the Indian Ocean. India on the other hand became independent when England fell and is avoiding foreign entanglements. The rest of Asia is a vast no-man's land (much like it is today). Let the games begin!

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