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Subject: Are you brainwashed during USMC training?
The Warrior    8/27/2005 4:04:11 PM
That's what I have heard.
 
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SCCOMarine       10/31/2007 3:28:48 PM

If you would have taken 10min to look up what ?Expeditionary Warfare? is you would have realized that thats far fr/ Expeditionary Warfare.
Wow, the Spanish, French, and British will be ASTONISHED to hear this, I think the Aztecs, Inca's, Indo-Chinese, Chinese, and a host of African tribes and states will amazed to learn this....  Expeditionary warfare, fighting "over there", even when over there is neutral or hostile is an age-old art.  The Marines developed AMPHIBIOUS warfare, in it's modern guise, but they did not invent EXPEDITIONARY warfare.


 

Expeditionary Warfare is a TITLE describing an overall capability. 

 

Just like I could say the MC has sent many units to work w/ various Indigenous personnel to assist in training over the last 100yrs, but that does not make it ?Unconventional Warfare.? 

 

Why?  B/C UW is a clearly defined capability. 

 

PPl for 1000s of yrs have sent expeditions for war and there have been hundreds over the past couple of decades, but that?s not ?Expeditionary Warfare?.

 

Why?  B/C EW is a clearly defined capability of force structure and command that allows for speed & efficiency of operations and have the ability of TASK organizing (To Tailor a Force for Specific Tasks) a force that is Totally Self-Sufficient in a matter of days and in some case hours instead of months as B4. 

Do some homework and try to grasp the Concepts of the things being discussed b4 you say the Dumbshit that your posting.  Its called COMPREHENSION.
 
 
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SCCOMarine       10/31/2007 3:42:49 PM
Combined Arms Warfare is total integration btw all Fires into a single unit under a single tactical command all done to provide close fire support to maneuver units on the ground.
No, it is the integration of all arms into flexible battle groups...again the Kaiser Heer, the Wehrmacht, and the US Army all practiced "combined arms warfare" either previous to, in the German case, or simultaneously WITH the US Marine Corps.  In the Army's case that would be the armored task forces, the Combat Commands, and the Regimental Combat Teams of the various Armored and Infantry Divisions.  What the Marines added was CAS controlled, if not provided by Marine A/C, by Marine ALO's.  That was a good move and a great improvement, one that the US Army wished for, devoutly, in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam.  But no, the USMC did not invent Combined Arms warfare, nice try.

CAW is not having units that can do this and units that can do that its TOTAL intergration of these capabilities.  Its a very complex capability far beyond just sprinkling in a bit of CAS. 
 
Its a strategy unique to the USMC, far beyond just having the pieces on the board, which is why the German officer in the article said we have a lot to learn combining Arty w/ CAS.
No the US Army does not & did not do this which is why they are attaching their Arty Officers to ANGLICO units for the experience as they move to their 'Joint Fires Officer' program.
 
Comprehend the material, don't just read it!
 
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JFKY       10/31/2007 4:27:21 PM
I DO comprehend the "argument" now...it's argument by definition.  Combined Arms Warfare is what SCCOMarine SAYS it is...
 
Combined Arms is the integration of an all-arms concept at the lowest possible level.  The German Kampfgruppe is ALL ARMS WARFARE, the US Army's Regimental Combat Team, regiment, artillery battalion, engineer company, assorted attachments was COMBINED ARMS WARFARE, the Marine Battalion or Regimental Landing Team are also examples of COMBINED ARMS.  It is NOT the integration of fire support it is the integration of various combat arms into one coherent unit.....an MEU(SOC) is an example of Combined Arms, not because you can call in a variety of fires, but because it involves, infantry, artillery, armour/armoured cars, engineers, signal, and other service and other service support elements.  In fact it becomes Combined operations because it involves aviation, though an MEU usually has Marine aviation they are still aviators, and Navy elements, SEALS, the "Gator Freighters" carrying the MEU. 
You might try House's Combined Arms Warfare in the Twentieth Century as a primer and then wander over into MacGregor's Breaking the Phalanx for modern variant on it.  Be careful though, because he knocks the Marines in is hypothetical example, the US Army defeats the Iranian/Iraqi aggression, you guys just get "nuked" in the Gulf.  So please note I am NOT accusing you of not practicing Combat Arms Combat, you do and you do it well, you simply didn't originate it.  It is a concept with roots in WWI, and according to House and MacGrgor it has been moving steadily forward and downward (as in the smallest all arms unit) since Napoleon.
 
Any way thank you for trying...but simply saying "X" is "X" simply by definition doesn't always work.   
 
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SCCOMarine    JFKY   10/31/2007 4:31:08 PM
Also the Army is reshaping its 'Future Combat Brigades' to deploy w/a force structure almost exactly similar to current Marine Expeditionary Brigades (MEBs) to be more self-sufficient while being rapidly deployable.
 
The Air Force in the late 1990's began reshaping its units in Air Expeditionary Forces(AEF) w/ nearly the exact same force structure of the Marine Expeditionary Forces(MEF).  The decided on this after watching the efficiency of the MEF in Desert Storm.
 
The SAD part is I can't even say this w/out being accused of bragging or being brain washed or saying the Marine Corps #1.
 
No, its information, it is what it is.  Information you and others might not know.  Any time any Marine posts anything on this site about the Marine Corps ppl take it as a threat. 
 
Most Marines that post true shit on this site sound almost apologetic.  I'm not, if ppl like you can't handle it too bad.
 
 
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SCCOMarine    JFKY   10/31/2007 4:45:09 PM

I DO comprehend the "argument" now...it's argument by definition.  Combined Arms Warfare is what SCCOMarine SAYS it is...

 

Combined Arms is the integration of an all-arms concept at the lowest possible level.  The German Kampfgruppe is ALL ARMS WARFARE, the US Army's Regimental Combat Team, regiment, artillery battalion, engineer company, assorted attachments was COMBINED ARMS WARFARE, the Marine Battalion or Regimental Landing Team are also examples of COMBINED ARMS.  It is NOT the integration of fire support it is the integration of various combat arms into one coherent unit.....an MEU(SOC) is an example of Combined Arms, not because you can call in a variety of fires, but because it involves, infantry, artillery, armour/armoured cars, engineers, signal, and other service and other service support elements.  In fact it becomes Combined operations because it involves aviation, though an MEU usually has Marine aviation they are still aviators, and Navy elements, SEALS, the "Gator Freighters" carrying the MEU. 

You might try House's Combined Arms Warfare in the Twentieth Century as a primer and then wander over into MacGregor's Breaking the Phalanx for modern variant on it.  Be careful though, because he knocks the Marines in is hypothetical example, the US Army defeats the Iranian/Iraqi aggression, you guys just get "nuked" in the Gulf.  So please note I am NOT accusing you of not practicing Combat Arms Combat, you do and you do it well, you simply didn't originate it.  It is a concept with roots in WWI, and according to House and MacGrgor it has been moving steadily forward and downward (as in the smallest all arms unit) since Napoleon.

 

Any way thank you for trying...but simply saying "X" is "X" simply by definition doesn't always work.   



Why are these units coming to the Marine Corps to study CAW?
 
Why does send ANGLICO units and Combined Arms Battle Staffs All US Allied Forces?
 
Why is ANGLICO & Marine Battle Staffs the only units capable of controlling all forms of Fires?
 
Why are other forces transforming their force structure along the Same lines as USMC?
 
Why do other forces send their personnel to CAX to learn Combined Arms Warfare?
 
If you think that the Army's RCTs and BCT's are Combined Arms Forces then you really don't get what Combined Arms Warfare is.
 
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SCCOMarine    JFKY   10/31/2007 4:53:49 PM
CAW is not having tanks & howitzer & jets & whatever else its a strategy of integration utilization. Everyone has them.
 
But b4 you can utilize it you need personnel & units & a Battle Staff that understand it.  Who know how to maneuver with it in an integrated fashion and be structured to best capitolize on these things
 
"Operating artillery with the air support is very important, and I think their forward air controllers can show us a lot and it is what we need to learn the most," said Capt. William Kramer, Panzer Artillery Battalion 125, Battery and Liaison officer.
 
 
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SCCOMarine    Read and Understand   10/31/2007 4:58:14 PM

Royal Marines finish training at MCAGCC

Oct. 25, 2002; Submitted on: 04/21/2005 02:42:01 PM ; Story ID#: 20021025171630

By Lance Cpl. Brent Walker, MCAGCC



MCAGCC, Twentynine Palms, Calif. (Oct. 25, 2002) -- The British Royal Marines of 40 Commando wrapped up nearly a month of training aboard the Combat Center Oct. 21, joining the U.S. Marines for their portion of the Final Exercise of Combined Arms Exercise 1-03.

The Royal Marines combined their infantry capabilities with the high-powered artillery and air support of the U.S. Marines with devastating effect during a live-fire attack on a fortified "enemy" position.

The attack opened in the morning, with a close-combat troop from D Co., 40 Commando assaulting an enemy observation post with support from 155mm Howitzers of M Battery, 3rd Battalion, 11th Marines and 105mm Howitzers from 8 Battery, 29 Commando, British Army.

After securing the observation post, the Royal Marines began their assault on the main enemy position. The next phase of the assault began when Royal Marines softened up the objective with .50 caliber machine gun fire. The Americans lent a hand, pouring in machine gun fire from the M1A1s of B. Co., 1st Tank Battalion. Meanwhile, a Royal Marine Milan anti-tank missile team from C Co., 40 Commando took out enemy armor with High-Explosive/Anti-Tank rounds. Along with heavy artillery and tank support, the Royal Marines got help from U.S. Marine Cobra attack helicopters and F/A-18 Hornet fighters, giving the Brits a taste of how the Marine Corps' combined-arms philosophy works in a live-fire situation.

To make the Royal Marines' combined-arms experience run more smoothly, U.S. Marines from Camp Pendleton's I Marine Expeditionary Force Liaison Element demonstrated how they call in pinpoint fire from artillery, air and naval guns.

"We're here supporting the British to make sure nothing goes wrong," said Cpl. David Marnell, I MLE. "We're basically teaching them the way of combining air and artillery fire, and they're learning pretty well. This is the liaison portion of our mission."

"It's a good experience for them to learn how to integrate fire," said Capt. Anthony Baggs, fire control team leader, I MLE. "Because of training like this, we feel more confident that we can go into actual combat with the Royal Marines and get the job done."

"They're good," said an impressed Marine John Bagshaw, C Co., 40 Commando, as he watched pinpoint Marine air and artillery light up the side of an enemy-infested mountain. "It's good to see all this firepower working together."

"To come here and work with the U.S. Marine Corps and hone our arms skills and fire-support coordination with the experts is an outstanding training opportunity," said Capt. Paul Lynch, officer commanding, Maneuver Support Group, 40 Commando. "We wouldn't be able to achieve this level of training back in the UK."

Their training aboard the Combat Center complete, the Royal Marines are going from the frying pan into the refrigerator. From here, they travel to the Mountain Warfare Training Center in Bridgeport, Calif. for more training. Looking back on the last month, the Royal Marines agreed that, even though the sun was a little more intense than they are used to, the chance to train alongside the U.S. Marines is invaluable.

"The support and hospitality we've received on our short trip to the U.S. has been amazing. Our Marines and the Americans have gotten on very well," Lynch said. "The United States Marine Corps is highly regarded around the world as the experts at all forms of battle. It was an honor to train with them."
 
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Ehran       11/1/2007 12:45:18 PM


Dive Bombing was invented in WWI, its not CAS.

CAS is CLOSE-AIR-SUPPORT, it was developed by Marines in the '20, there's a big difference.

 

Whats the difference?  Hey, I'm glad you asked!

 

CAS was invented by Marine Pilots who were all Infantry Officers who realized they could predict the moves of individual maneuver units dropping fires directly infront & control and use fires to maneuver the enemy into positions more favorable to the guys on the ground. 

 

These pilots were then place back into infantry units directing fires directly to the Pilots, CAS is a close relationship btw the Pilot and the Controllers on the Ground.  Its not dive bombing.


i believe both the germans and british built special aircraft by the end of ww1 which were in effect A 10's of the era specifically to go down low and dirty in support of ground troops.  the fact that radio technology wasn't advanced enough at that point to allow for comms tween ground and air doesn't make them not CAS aircraft.  i'll happily grant you that the usmc has honed cas to a fine art but claiming they invented it is stretching a point.

 
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Kammak    CAS and other firsts   12/23/2007 2:06:49 PM
First use of dive bombing in support of ground forces - Ocotal, Nicaragua 16 July 1927.  World first.
 
First successful, effective aerial resupply of a beseiged garrison - Quilali, Nicaragua 1-8 January 1928.
 
Conventional Wisdom holds that three of the 20th Century military feats led/developed by the USMC are Amphibious Assault, CAS, and Vertical Envelopment (helicopter assault).  Marines were doing vertical envelopment in the Korean War, CAS in the Banana Wars, and wrote the book on modern amphibious assault in the 1930s (a book used by the Army in its amphib.aslts in WWII as well).  The Small Wars manual is nothing to sneeze at either - written in the '20s and '30s as well - quoted at length in the just-written COIN manual.
 
 
 
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Yimmy       12/23/2007 2:15:00 PM


Conventional Wisdom holds that three of the 20th Century military feats led/developed by the USMC are Amphibious Assault, CAS, and Vertical Envelopment (helicopter assault).

I don't see how any of these can be credited to the American marines.

All three terms are just that, terms to describe a common action.  Warfare involving stepping off boats and fighting was brought about with the first boat, while helicopter assaults came with the first use of the helicopter - neither are rocket science.  CAS is just an aircraft attacking the enemy close to and in support of your own forces.... things like radios are just an afterthought and not requisite for the task.

 
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