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Subject: Are you brainwashed during USMC training?
The Warrior    8/27/2005 4:04:11 PM
That's what I have heard.
 
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JFKY       10/29/2007 1:08:40 PM
And in typical fashion I notice that there is no mention of the US Army task forces that also fought in Fallujah...I guess they only followed along in the wake of the Marine/SEAL units and policed up the spent brass, right?
 
That's my point, I'm glad you're proud to be a Marine, but here's a news flash, lots of folks know how to load into a helicopter and exit them, tactically.  And the US Army has launched more amphibious operations than the Marine Corps, AND further, were it not for the support of US Army armour, US Army artillery, and US Army CSS units, the Marines would have been hard-pressed to perform at all, in either Desert Storm or OIF.
 
The USMC is designed to operate close to the shores, and when it operates for an extended period ashore it needs augmentation from the US Army to function.  That's fine, the Marines focus on tactical operations near a coast line, it's what they do, and it allows them to get the maximum bang for their buck.  But, please don't act as if the USMC would perform nearly so well without other service support, and please don't act as if the current USMC could field as much combat power IF the USMC had to field the full panoply of CS and CSS units that it's forces actually require.
 
Bottom-line: be proud all you want, try to keep your service in its proper focus...and accept some gentle ribbing from others.  Not everything is a mortal insult and if you can't develop the humility to accept some gentle ribbing then please develop the humility and ADULT NATURE required to accept it.  Right now your posts come off like some insecure child, who must ALWAYS be right.  I think underneath it, you must have some towering insecurities, because confident adults can take a bit of joshing.  Again, check out Horsesoldier, and his discussions of his role in the SpecOps community.  He can poke a little fun at himself, and not feel like he's been mortally insulted.  You might learn something from him.  Mostly that those who know they're good, don't have to spend a lot of time talking about how good they are.  They know that their actions speak for themselves....
 
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SCCOMarine       10/30/2007 12:16:47 AM

And in typical fashion I notice that there is no mention of the US Army task forces that also fought in Fallujah...I guess they only followed along in the wake of the Marine/SEAL units and policed up the spent brass, right?

In typical fashion of some one who doesn't know the shit, you lack the detail that gives proper discernment of the subject matter.

The SEAL who wrote the story, was on the ground and maneuvering with the Marine Infantry, was referring to the first assault in April of ?04.  It?s clearly noted.

In that assault there were no Army units involved in the major fighting within the city.

The  Marines were originally ordered into Fallujah in Apr ?04, 1 week after the Marines took over the AO fr/ the Army?s 82nd AB.  5 months after insurgents forced the 82nd to withdraw fr/ Fallujah, 5 wks (late Feb ?04) after the 82nd refused to help the Iraqi police who were engaged in a 6hr gunfight during a prison outbreak in the city when 27 IPs were killed and over 100 insurgents were freed and a BCT fr/ the 82nd was based at the ?Mek? less than 15min away.  I?m sure the soldiers wanted to help but the commanders lacked the balls.

 
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SCCOMarine       10/30/2007 12:47:44 AM

Now if your referring to the 2nd assault(Nov 04) there were Army units involved.  The Army units were requested by the Marines 1) to make it a more joint mission  2) there weren?t enough Marines for the Seige. 

And if you think that they were fighting side by side seizing the same objectives, they weren?t.  The Army units sectors were the more open, less dense Industrial area.  The Marine units pushed thru the heart of the city in much more intense combat.

The problem isn?t me its you and everyone on sites like this like you.  You don?t have an understanding of what the USMC does, is capable of, or its history and then write your misinfo about the Corps.  Then get mad when you hear about the Marine Corps.

Do you have answers to the ?s fr/ above?  No?

Do I get charged up, Fuck Yeah!  You?re ignorant to the Corps? capabilities but you talk shit.  The Marine Corps trains head-to-head and deploys w/ the best units in the world, but has a record of success unlike any unit.  But you still talk shit.  Why wouldn?t I get charged up.

But hey maybe most ppl don?t get articles and info covering this shit.  So I give the articles and info confirming it.  But you don?t read them?and still talk shit.

Not to call anybody out but Horse, for example, said a lot ot wrong things about ANGLICO b/c he didn?t know.  But after some research came to understand and respect their capabilities.  Not many of you do that.

If you don?t know about the Marine Corps then read don?t talk shit!

 
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SCCOMarine       10/30/2007 1:35:57 AM

2) Let me tell you I'd laugh at you and the guy in your link, because both of you sound like the Marine Corps version of Mike Sparks, and that's not a compliment.



This is my point, you still talk shit.  ?The guy in my article?, the writer, is:

1)       A respected Operator & Commander of a SEAL Task Unit.  

 

2) BUDS Class Honorman who knows about putting out& earning respect. 

 

3) Was on the ground making tactical decision watching young Marines killing and dying in such a way that moved him to write what he wrote. 

 

Reflecting the same words stated by one America?s Greatest General 50yrs earlier, Army Gen MacArthur, after watching Marines maneuver & kill and in both Korea and Japan.

 

The question is who the Fuck are you?

 

There?s more, a long list of respected warfighters & Elite units that have fought w/ or against Marines.

 

It was Commander of US Forces in WWI Army Gen Black Jack Pershing who said, ?The deadliest weapon in the World was a Marine & his Rifle? when pressed by his Army staff on why he allowed finally the Marines to form into a single Brigade and fight using their own tactics.

 

This was the same Brigade that days later went after &crushed the Ger. Div that the rest of the Allies were retreating fr/ at

 
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JFKY       10/30/2007 10:54:55 AM
BFD he's the honour man of his class, does that suddenly make him Sun Tzu, and please note this, when Fallujah was FINALLY occupied, there were two Army task forces operating with the Marines.  I couldn't care less that he completed BUDS or how high he graduated in his class.  Neither John Keegan nor SLA Marshall completed BUDS, but I'd trust their of military capacity a little more than this guy.  Now I wouldn't trust their judgment about how to best or most effectively launch a seaborne reconnaissance or raid.  The SEAL takes that cake, that's his métier.
 
Get over yourself dude...the Marines are fine folks, I know a few...but right now you're Mike Sparks, only you have a funny hat and rather than Airborne Wings, your talisman is the Globe and Anchor.
 
No one's talking "Sh*te" about the Corps, just pointing out that the Corps isn't the ONLY branch of hanging around, and I'd put any number of Army ground units up against Corps units, as well.
 
Again, get fired up at Mike Sparks who insults you, get over someone that pokes some fun at you...You spend all this effort with Marine Corps hagiography, that's nice, but it isn't always the total truth.  The Marines are very good, that does not translate into the "best" or that any one else can't do the job.
 
The Corps does a very good job of small unit tactics, does a very good job of expeditionary/amphibious work, it's your stock-in-trade you should be good at it.  But being good at getting into the boat and thru the surf, simply means you're good at that...the 82nd is good at falling out of airplanes and fighting off a DZ.  Who is better?  Arguably neither, they don't do the same thing, and if I dump a bunch of Jarheads out of an airplane, in the middle of the night, at 300 metres, onto an airfield I should expect problems, just as if I dump a bunch of the "Jumping Junkies" into a small boat and send them ashore thru the surf there will be problems there, too.  Just get over yourself, dude and learn to appreciate what you do and what others do.
 
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Ehran       10/30/2007 2:39:28 PM

Close Air Support & Airborne Cas Evac--Banana Wars 1920's-Present
close air support was born on the battlefields of europe during ww1
  • Developed Long Range Reconnaissance and Long Range Communications--1st Force Recon- Early ?60s
  • you know the british did this to the turks during ww1 and both the germans and italians in ww2.


3 areas where all Armed Forces are headed, all Marine Corps firsts:



  • Expeditionary Warfare
  • brits have done this for literally centuries it's hardly new.
  • Combined Arms Warfare
  • brits and germans wrote the book on this before ww2.

 

Am I Brainwashed?  No Faggot!  I'm INDOCTRINATED

personal insults are both pointless on the net and damage your argument.

 
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SCCOMarine       10/31/2007 2:06:37 PM



Close Air Support & Airborne Cas Evac--Banana Wars 1920's-Present

close air support was born on the battlefields of europe during ww1


Dive Bombing was invented in WWI, its not CAS.
CAS is CLOSE-AIR-SUPPORT, it was developed by Marines in the '20, there's a big difference.
 
Whats the difference?  Hey, I'm glad you asked!
 
CAS was invented by Marine Pilots who were all Infantry Officers who realized they could predict the moves of individual maneuver units dropping fires directly infront & control and use fires to maneuver the enemy into positions more favorable to the guys on the ground. 
 
These pilots were then place back into infantry units directing fires directly to the Pilots, CAS is a close relationship btw the Pilot and the Controllers on the Ground.  Its not dive bombing.

 
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SCCOMarine       10/31/2007 2:13:21 PM

3 areas where all Armed Forces are headed, all Marine Corps firsts:
  • Expeditionary Warfare
  • brits have done this for literally centuries it's hardly new.

  • Combined Arms Warfare
  • brits and germans wrote the book on this before ww2.


The ?Expeditionary Forces? you?re referring was a generic title used during any operation foreign soil.  During WWI all the allied forces went under the title Allied Expeditionary Forces.

If you would have taken 10min to look up what ?Expeditionary Warfare? is you would have realized that thats far fr/ Expeditionary Warfare.

EW is a totally integrated Combat-Logistic-Support-C4/ISR Force that can task organize for almost any mission, being able to mobilize as a total unit on very short notice.

Combined Arms Warfare is total integration btw all Fires into a single unit under a single tactical command all done to provide close fire support to maneuver units on the ground.

To perform CAW you need personnel trained & Certified to control all fires(Mortar, Arty, Fixed Wing, Rotary Wing, Naval Gunfire, Land/Sea Based Missile Systems),  Marine Corps has the only personnel structured and trained to do this as one unit.  This is why ANGLICO attaches units to all US Allied Forces, to assist them in their Combined Arms Planning.


 
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SCCOMarine    Really   10/31/2007 2:37:58 PM



  • Combined Arms Warfare
  • brits and germans wrote the book on this before ww2.


Combined Arms Warfare is total integration btw all Fires into a single unit under a single tactical command all done to provide close fire support to maneuver units on the ground.


To perform CAW you need personnel trained & Certified to control all fires(Mortar, Arty, Fixed Wing, Rotary Wing, Naval Gunfire, Land/Sea Based Missile Systems),  Marine Corps has the only personnel structured and trained to do this as one unit.  This is why ANGLICO attaches units to all US Allied Forces, to assist them in their Combined Arms Planning.



2nd ANGLICO lights up Germany during fire support training

 

MUNSTER SOUTH TRAINING AREA, Germany (Mar. 12, 2007) -- For many Marine units, pre-deployment training includes trips to the parched, sandy deserts of Southern California, but for the 2nd Air Naval Gunfire Liaison Company, II Marine Expeditionary Force, their training took them to the lush green countryside of northwestern Germany.

Approximately 40 Marines, three sailors and one soldier from 2nd ANGLICO, came to the Munster South Training Area, near Hamburg, Germany 1-18 March to participate in exercise Combined Thunder, an annual German exercise that focuses on fire support coordination and execution.


During the two-week exercise the Camp Lejeune, N.C. based ANGLICO team worked along side German soldiers assigned to the Panzer Artillery Regiment 100 and Panzer Artillery Battalion 125, coordinating fire support during a virtual battle at the historic training area.

 

ANGLICO
 
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JFKY       10/31/2007 2:42:57 PM
If you would have taken 10min to look up what ?Expeditionary Warfare? is you would have realized that thats far fr/ Expeditionary Warfare.
Wow, the Spanish, French, and British will be ASTONISHED to hear this, I think the Aztecs, Inca's, Indo-Chinese, Chinese, and a host of African tribes and states will amazed to learn this....  Expeditionary warfare, fighting "over there", even when over there is neutral or hostile is an age-old art.  The Marines developed AMPHIBIOUS warfare, in it's modern guise, but they did not invent EXPEDITIONARY warfare.
Combined Arms Warfare is total integration btw all Fires into a single unit under a single tactical command all done to provide close fire support to maneuver units on the ground.
No, it is the integration of all arms into flexible battle groups...again the Kaiser Heer, the Wehrmacht, and the US Army all practiced "combined arms warfare" either previous to, in the German case, or simultaneously WITH the US Marine Corps.  In the Army's case that would be the armored task forces, the Combat Commands, and the Regimental Combat Teams of the various Armored and Infantry Divisions.  What the Marines added was CAS controlled, if not provided by Marine A/C, by Marine ALO's.  That was a good move and a great improvement, one that the US Army wished for, devoutly, in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam.  But no, the USMC did not invent Combined Arms warfare, nice try.
 
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