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Subject: End of the Marine Regiment?
oregon_x_marine    7/16/2003 4:33:45 PM
In reviewing the order of battle for Gulf War I & II, it has become quite obvious that the traditional Marine Regiment is "too regimented" for modern combined arms warfare. I fear that the legacy and history of Marine units will be seriously diluted or rendered meaningless if changes are not made. The Ground Force Element(MarDiv)of the modern MEF fight as combined arms "task force(s)" composed of various combat arms battalions and support elements. Scalability and flexibility are essential organizing principles behind these large command units, thus the MarDiv should be organized around permanent "scalable" brigades. The various combat arms battalions (infantry, artillery and armor) should receive the offical designation of "Marines" and have a unique numberical identifier (e.g. 1/1 becomes the 1st Marines, 2/1 becomes the 21st Marines, etc.), and the re-named regiments (brigades) could be named after a famous battles it had participated in (e.g. 2nd Regiment becomes the Tarawa Brigade). In accordance with naval fleet organization (fleet, task force, task group,task unit, etc.), the MEB should be redesignated Marine Expdeitionary Group. Such cosmetic changes might first appear to be superficial, but one has only to look at the corporatist structure of the modern Army division, which is organized around indescript brigades composed different battalions of non-operational regiments, to understand what could be lost.
 
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oregon_x_marine    RE:End of the Marine Regiment?   7/20/2003 1:42:57 PM
OK, now I remember. I went to a club on BC street sometime in 1981-82 and watched the rock band Okinawa. They were excellent and covered a lot of Pink Floyd songs. You were at Camp Henoko!! What a small world. Henoko was a great little camp that was never caught up in the testosterone and alchol drenched evironment of Camp Schwab. For me, my three years in the Corps was, as one famous writer wrote, "the best of times and the worst of times." I had always wanted to serve but foolishly enlisted open contract. My 20/450 vision kept me out of the infantry, thank god, but landed me in food service. I lucked out at Henoko and was, essentially, the admin clerk at their dining facility but then had to be a line cook at MCAS(H) Tustin for 15 months. Being a 3300 absolutely sucked, but three years in the Corps was great. What is Det1 at Camp Henoko? Interesting point about the HQ units. What happens to the HQ elements in the field when their assest are parcelled out to various task forces, MEU's etc.? If a HQ element is not actually going to be tactically commanding their units in the field what are the HQ elements main functions in garrison? How would you realign the Div around the MEB?
 
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macawman    RE:End of the Marine Regiment?   7/20/2003 8:24:35 PM
Sam: Your point about desolving the HQ element of the armored Bn make sense tactically for the Corps. The Corps uses tanks as strictly infantry support by previous doctrine. The Army's Tiger Bde of 2nd Amd Div found that out when they were assigned to the Marines during Desert Storm. They were "biting at the bit" because they were only allowed to move at the pace of the Marine infantry who were mopping up Iraqi trench lines. But I think in Iraq War II in the "Race to Baghdad" was a different story, that is a change in Marine Corps armour doctrine. Was there a change ?
 
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Sam    RE:End of the Marine Regiment?   7/20/2003 9:27:30 PM
Actually I think that CG 1st MarDiv suprised everyone by using tanks as a separate maneuver element.But with having the reserve tankers he could afford to do that and still have tanks provide infantry support. One of the big reasons that we still had M-60 tanks for DS was that the army wouldn't modify the M-1 to have an infantry phone on the rear. That is a must have, and Marine M-1A1s have them now. The most suprising move he made was have recon battalion serve as a maneuver infantry element. It sounds like he wanted to be first in baghdad. He relieved a "up an coming" regimental commander for not being fast enough. A cook at Henoko, Probibly the smallest chow hall in the marine corps. And consistantly one of the best.Nothing like a chowhall that only has to feed a company. Det 1 was disbanded in 1991. We were the Ground nuclear ord guys that "weren't there". I'll have to dig up the 2d MarDiv reorganisation that I did a few years back.
 
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oregon_x_marine    RE:End of the Marine Regiment?   7/20/2003 11:32:59 PM
The Henoko dining facitily was pretty good and probably the smallest in the corps. We use to get a lot of medical squids from Schwab coming up to Henoko for lunch. Since every one loves (or one day needs) a corpsman, we let them in. I read an excellent account of a Marine Tank battalion in Gulf War 2 on globalsecurity.org. 24-36 hours before the official start of the ground war, intel thought some elements of the 51st Iraqi division was moving towardes the northern Kuwait border. In response a Marine tank battalion swung out of Kuwait and headed towards Basra for a possible intercept. They had to take extra fuel bladders and ammo because they would not be resupplied for a couple of days. The battalion ended up at the outskirts of Um Quasar (I think)several hours before the offical start of the war which prompted the battalion SGTMAJ to state they were "Alone and un-afraid." This became the new battalion nickname. In one of the books I read about Gulf War 1, Col. Sylvester, the CO of the Army's Tiger Brigade, swallowed hard when he was informed that his unit was going to fight the war with the Marines. Apparently, the Army hadn't gotten over Gen. "Howling Mad" Smith's dismissal of an Army division CG during the Saipan campaign during WW2!
 
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oregon_x_marine    RE:End of the Marine Regiment?   7/20/2003 11:33:56 PM
The Henoko dining facitily was pretty good and probably the smallest in the corps. We use to get a lot of medical squids from Schwab coming up to Henoko for lunch. Since every one loves (or one day needs) a corpsman, we let them in. I read an excellent account of a Marine Tank battalion in Gulf War 2 on globalsecurity.org. 24-36 hours before the official start of the ground war, intel thought some elements of the 51st Iraqi division was moving towardes the northern Kuwait border. In response a Marine tank battalion swung out of Kuwait and headed towards Basra for a possible intercept. They had to take extra fuel bladders and ammo because they would not be resupplied for a couple of days. The battalion ended up at the outskirts of Um Quasar (I think)several hours before the offical start of the war which prompted the battalion SGTMAJ to state they were "Alone and un-afraid." This became the new battalion nickname. In one of the books I read about Gulf War 1, Col. Sylvester, the CO of the Army's Tiger Brigade, swallowed hard when he was informed that his unit was going to fight the war with the Marines. Apparently, the Army hadn't gotten over Gen. "Howling Mad" Smith's dismissal of an Army division CG during the Saipan campaign during WW2!
 
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oregon_x_marine    RE:End of the Marine Regiment?   7/20/2003 11:34:06 PM
The Henoko dining facitily was pretty good and probably the smallest in the corps. We use to get a lot of medical squids from Schwab coming up to Henoko for lunch. Since every one loves (or one day needs) a corpsman, we let them in. I read an excellent account of a Marine Tank battalion in Gulf War 2 on globalsecurity.org. 24-36 hours before the official start of the ground war, intel thought some elements of the 51st Iraqi division was moving towardes the northern Kuwait border. In response a Marine tank battalion swung out of Kuwait and headed towards Basra for a possible intercept. They had to take extra fuel bladders and ammo because they would not be resupplied for a couple of days. The battalion ended up at the outskirts of Um Quasar (I think)several hours before the offical start of the war which prompted the battalion SGTMAJ to state they were "Alone and un-afraid." This became the new battalion nickname. In one of the books I read about Gulf War 1, Col. Sylvester, the CO of the Army's Tiger Brigade, swallowed hard when he was informed that his unit was going to fight the war with the Marines. Apparently, the Army hadn't gotten over Gen. "Howling Mad" Smith's dismissal of an Army division CG during the Saipan campaign during WW2!
 
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oregon_x_marine    RE:End of the Marine Regiment?   7/20/2003 11:36:44 PM
The Henoko dining facitily was pretty good and probably the smallest in the corps. We use to get a lot of medical squids from Schwab coming up to Henoko for lunch. Since every one loves (or one day needs) a corpsman, we let them in. I read an excellent account of a Marine Tank battalion in Gulf War 2 on globalsecurity.org. 24-36 hours before the official start of the ground war, intel thought some elements of the 51st Iraqi division was moving towardes the northern Kuwait border. In response a Marine tank battalion swung out of Kuwait and headed towards Basra for a possible intercept. They had to take extra fuel bladders and ammo because they would not be resupplied for a couple of days. The battalion ended up at the outskirts of Um Quasar (I think)several hours before the offical start of the war which prompted the battalion SGTMAJ to state they were "Alone and un-afraid." This became the new battalion nickname. In one of the books I read about Gulf War 1, Col. Sylvester, the CO of the Army's Tiger Brigade, swallowed hard when he was informed that his unit was going to fight the war with the Marines. Apparently, the Army hadn't gotten over Gen. "Howling Mad" Smith's dismissal of an Army division CG during the Saipan campaign during WW2!
 
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Shaka of Carthage    RE:End of the Marine Regiment? ... Sam   7/21/2003 1:26:17 PM
>The most suprising move he made was have recon battalion serve as a maneuver infantry element.< While I think I know why you are saying this, its slightly off. The Recon Battalion (before the LAVs) were always the "eyes and ears" of the Marine Div. They are not Force Recon. Using them as a maneuver battalion, is no different than what they are suppossed to be used for. They have always been the equiv of Army "light" cav.
 
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Sam    RE:End of the Marine Regiment? ... Sam   7/21/2003 8:21:23 PM
Shaka, Understand the "eyes and ears" mission. This wasn't that. They were used like an 0311 rifle battalion.Div recon are suppose to be close in (supporting arms range) eyes, force is the deep recon for the MEF. I think that at the Div level no one knew how to use them. There has always (last 20yrs) been a combined Bn/force det that went on MEUs and recon had some play in RLT/MEB size training (CAX) but on DivEx had always been piecemealed out to the Inf Bns. LAVs are usually used as a screening/blocking force. Or do deep raids and route recon.
 
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oregon_x_marine    RE:SAM...check this out   2/5/2004 12:20:56 PM
An interesting article from the Marine Corps Gazette. link Below is cut and pasted from the above article. Infantry regiments sourcing forward deployed units: 1st Marines (1/1, 2/1, 3/1, 1/4): Provide GCE for west coast MEUs Amphibious force for west coast 2d Marines (1/2, 2/2, 3/2, 1/8): Provide GCE for east coast MEUs Amphibious force for east coast 3d Marines (1/3, 2/3, 3/3): Provide GCE for 31st MEU(SOC) 4th Marines (2/4, 3/4): Assigned to 3d MarDiv on Okinawa?prep for MTW in Korea and contingencies in Asia Infantry regiments providing forces for MTW and major contingencies: 5th Marines (1/5, 2/5, 3/5): GCE for MPS?3 (Guam) 6th Marines (1/6, 2/6, 3/6): GCE for MPS?1 (Mediterranean) 7th Marines (1/7, 2/7, 3/7): GCE for MPS?2 (Diego Garcia) 8th Marines (2/8, 3/8): prepared for deployment via strategic lift Which theory does this article support: your brigade centric or my battalion centric Corps?
 
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