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Subject: Marine Artillery
ambush    5/30/2004 7:54:33 PM
The Marine Corps is looking toward changing how it is equipping it artillery. In the past the Marine Corps used to have a lot of Artillery of different types: Self propelled 8 inch, 175mm and 155mm along with towed 155mm and 105mm. This was organized into Field Artillery Groups and Artillery Regiments. It went through various reorganizations and after the defeat of the Soviet Union was greatly reduced in search of the ?Peace Dividend.? It was cut back to only one type towed 155mm (M198) with a few 105mm kept on hand just in case. The M198 was never my favorite for amphibious ops because of its weight. I also like the 105mm because you can drop the rounds closer to friendly forces when the bad guys are in the wire. The Marine Corps has recognized the current organizations short comings and it is reorganizing and re-equipping. Current plans include the HIMARS and new 155mm howitzer and 120mm mortar. What should the Marine Corps buy and how should it be organized? In my opinion the Marine Corps Artillery should be designed for two purposes: deployment with Marine Expeditionary Units-MEU and deployment with larger Marine Air Ground Task Forces-MACTFs involved in longer sustained ops like the Gulf Wars. The Artillery component for a MEU normally consists of one battery of M198, 155mm Howitzers, a heavy beast. The MEU is designed as a kick in the door/roof force designed for 30 days of self sustained combat to secure entry in the theater of operations (among other missions) for the follow on heavy forces of the Army and/or a. MAGTF. I think that the MEU artillery component should be changed to two batteries. One Battery should be a 105mm howitzer battery, perhaps along the lines of the excellent light 105mm L119 (UK) M119 (US). The second battery should be equipped with a towed 120mm Mortar like the Army?s M120 or a towed version of the Marine Corps Mobile Fire support system that is under development. Both these systems are light enough to ease the problems of getting them ashore with the assets available to a MEU. The minimum safe distances for the 105mm and 120m are about 100 meters closer than a 155m allowing for tighter support of the troops if needed. Advances in technology also allow for more varieties of ammunition to be developed like thermobaric ammo for the 120mm mortar. Granted you loose firepower andrange by givign up the 155 but I think the gains in logisitics, rate of fire and in th ecaseof th rmortar high angle fire, offset this. The MACTF artillery component should be heavier because it can be a much larger force and find itself in situations like Gulf Wars I and II. Exact composition should be based on size and mission of the force but the following equipment should be available: HIMARS A wheeled 155mm howitzer like the French Caesar but on a LAV or HIMARS vehicle bed. A LAV based 120mm mortar. These three systems should be transportable by Marine KC-130. Figure on a Battalion of each system with each Marine Artillery Regiment. Four firing batteries per Battalion for the 105 howitzer and 120mm mortars to support MEU deployments and 3 firing batteries for the HIMARS and 155SP. Have one battery of the LAV mounted 120mm with each LAV Battalion.
 
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ambush    RE:Marine Artillery   5/31/2004 8:16:00 PM
"Equipping the battalion mortars with both allows mixing and matching. A seperate 120mm platoon (or battery) adds more bang, but aren't MEUs pretty tight in terms of the transports that carry them? Would the 120mm unit mean 30 or so riflemen or other personnel would have to stay home" If talking about deck space, my orignal suggesting is replacing a single 155 Bttry with a Bttry of 105mm Howitzers and 120mm mortars The logistics burdent ofthe M198 is much biggerand requires a larger prime mover and ammo carrier(5 ton trucks) vs HMMVWs foir the 105s and 120s. I do nto have a template to work with but I am think the deck space should work out about even. The same should apply to Helicopter lift. Manpower is a question for the Artilery Regiments. The logistics burden for the 105s and 120s is less so there is a manpower savings there. The Arty guys would find themselves deployed more since they would be sending two Batteries per MEU instead of one. But since the Amphibs are going to a surge method like the Carriers the deployments are not going to be that bad I am pretty sure that the Rangers do not man handle that M120 very far. Plus there is the Ammo to consider. A single round of 81mm HE is about 9lbs. A single round of 120mm HE in about 29 lbs. Just as a comparison I believe a single 105mm HE round weighs between 30-35lbs. The 120mm is fine Battalion Mortar for Mech and Armored Untis but for Light, Airborne and Marine Units I think the M120 is better classed as an Artillery piece. For a time I was assigned to 106mm recoiless rifle team-the old M40. That thing weighed over 400lbs and nobody consider pushing it over long disnaces dismounted form it jeep or mule even though it was mounted on a one wheeled tripod.
 
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doggtag    RE:Marine Artillery   5/31/2004 8:31:23 PM
some of the latest generation of 105mm ammo can be pushed out to even about 30km. And the newer computer designed (for fragmentive effect and lethality) shells for 105 and 120mm are even as lethal as heavier 155mm shells. Add to the fact that shell guidance systems are shrinking rapidly, and these lighter sysytems may end up being the better choices. Future precision guided 120mm rounds could reach considerably farther than current rounds, and as precision rounds become more accurate, the need for area effect saturation will slowly dwindle away. Perhaps only in air-bursting anti-personnel roles will the massed volleys of artillery be employed. And if you can get a single 105mm or 120mm round into a 2-3m CEP, then unless you have a largely spread out area target, you won't really be needing cluster ammunition either (meaning no left over bomblets risking the civilians)..
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Marine Artillery   5/31/2004 8:47:26 PM
>>I am pretty sure that the Rangers do not man handle that M120 very far. Plus there is the Ammo to consider. A single round of 81mm HE is about 9lbs. A single round of 120mm HE in about 29 lbs.<< I'll check with my buddy at work who was with 3rd Battalion, but from talking to him I get the sense guys hauled it off the drop zone or landing zone out to objectives. From what he said it sounded like he was there when battalion mortars graduated to 120mm (they may mix and match 81mm and 120mm like I've discussed here, not sure) since the regimental commander or someone at the time was taken with how the WW2 Ranger units had 4.2" chemical mortar companies attached for fire support. From what he said (he wasn't a mortar guy, parenthetically), hauling it by hand on the trailer was not an ideal solution, but one which the guys could manage. I gather the entire gun crew was involved in pulling the weapon. I'm guessing ammunition would be on another cart, but will check on it.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Marine Artillery   5/31/2004 8:54:05 PM
>>Future precision guided 120mm rounds could reach considerably farther than current rounds<< I seem to recall that the 120mm PGM mortar round the US is working on is supposed to have at least double the range of the current rounds.
 
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stinger       3/9/2008 8:38:53 PM
a marine armored battalion is a little different than an army armored battalion. the marines have a tow platoon and a scout platoon. army armored  battalions have a scout platoon and a mortar platoon . i know the marines have mortars at the battalion and company level in the infantry battalions and the LAV battalions have a mortar platoon, but i asking why not a mortar platoon in a marine armored battalion? 
 
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stinger       3/22/2008 12:15:00 AM

a marine armored battalion is a little different than an army armored battalion. the marines have a tow platoon and a scout platoon. army armored  battalions have a scout platoon and a mortar platoon . i know the marines have mortars at the battalion and company level in the infantry battalions and the LAV battalions have a mortar platoon, but i asking why not a mortar platoon in a marine armored battalion? 



 
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ambush       3/22/2008 12:28:45 AM

a marine armored battalion is a little different than an army armored battalion. the marines have a tow platoon and a scout platoon. army armored  battalions have a scout platoon and a mortar platoon . i know the marines have mortars at the battalion and company level in the infantry battalions and the LAV battalions have a mortar platoon, but i asking why not a mortar platoon in a marine armored battalion? 



If by Marine "Armored" Battalion you are talking about the Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalions (LAV equpipped)  their primary mission is reconnaissance not armored combat. They like the Mairne tank battalions are not intended  to fight as a Battalion size unit (though they can)  but to detach elements in support of a MEU or MAGTF.  While I do not know of theTO&E of the LAR Battallions there are TOW and mortar versions of the LAV-25.
 
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stinger       3/22/2008 2:57:27 AM
no i'm talking about a marine tank battalion (armor) thet have no mortar support unlike a army tank battalion (armor). the only thing they have the same not really the same but they both have a scout platoon.
 
army tank battalion  scout platoon mortar platoon
marine tank battalion scout platoon tow platoon.
 
 
if theres any tankers out there that can tell me why the marine tank battalions  have no mortars ?
 
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ambush       3/22/2008 1:13:16 PM

no i'm talking about a marine tank battalion (armor) thet have no mortar support unlike a army tank battalion (armor). the only thing they have the same not really the same but they both have a scout platoon.

 

army tank battalion  scout platoon mortar platoon

marine tank battalion scout platoon tow platoon.

 

 

if theres any tankers out there that can tell me why the marine tank battalions  have no mortars ?


Not a Marine tanker but was a Marine grunt.  Once again the Marine tank battalion is not set up to fight as a battalion as its primary mission.  It normally detaches elements in support of other units for example a tank platoon may be deployed as  part of an MEU sitting of the coast of Africa while part of tha same tank battalion may have a tank company as part of a MAGTF in Iraq.  The MEU and MAGTF have mortars, artillery, naval gunfire and CAS available there is not really a pressing need for the tank battalion to have its own mortars since it will not be operation on its own.  Comparing a Marine tank battalion with a Army one is really like comparing apples and oranges.
 
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stinger       3/22/2008 8:59:15 PM
i would have to disagree, because in the beginning of OIF-1 2 marine tank battalion were the lead element of a marine regimental combat team that came in the south east and hooked up north. i know that the MEUs  carry a platoon of tanks and that they are tasked out. but the question still stands. marines only have 81mm mortars and i think they might receive the towed 120mm automated system, i forgot if the LAV-M carries the 81mm or the 120 mm.
 
and if mortars are not needed in a tank battalion as you say, then why do they  have there own scout platoon and TOW platoon.... if they dont fight as a battalion as you said . the infantry battalions already have tow and scout platoons.if they dont need mortars then why have TOWs. do you see were im going with this. i still think a mortar section would be nice.
 
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