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Subject: Defeat At New Orleans
SYSOP    9/1/2008 5:25:00 AM
 
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CJH       9/1/2008 11:46:39 AM
I guess that the idea of requiring a surety bond preliminary to the government's contracting for a ship is not a viable option.
 
I believe that I have read that the ancient Roman government contracted out to individuals and syndicates who were required to put up bonds guaranteeing their performance.
 
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afrc       9/2/2008 12:12:30 AM
I guess that the idea of requiring a surety bond preliminary to the government's contracting for a ship is not a viable option.
 
I believe that I have read that the ancient Roman government contracted out to individuals and syndicates who were required to put up bonds guaranteeing their performance.
 
This is excellent idea... I would love to see this implemented, but the system is way too corrupt to allow it. The problem is not with Navy alone... we have problems with Army and Air Force. I read a few articles about outrageous waste of money with some USAF contracts (practically criminal) and companies were not even fined... sometimes even rewarded with more contracts. There is no personal responsibility at all any more and it is the same in civilian sector. This becomes society-wide problem and military is reflection of society. Maybe capitalism is dying?
 
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Mrbinga       9/2/2008 11:43:46 AM
Is the USS San Antonio any where near being operable?  Last time I read anything about her and granted this was a long time ago she sounded like a complete and udder lemon with no hope of having any of her kinks worked out.
 
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dziban303       9/2/2008 3:18:34 PM
It should be noted that the AAAV was renamed the Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle (EFV) almost five years ago.
 
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JFKY    Performance Bonds   9/2/2008 3:30:01 PM
Well, I don't know but I'm willing to bet that the USN had something to do with this "debacle."  If it IS a debacle, to be distinguished from the growing pains of creating a new class of vessel.  Look at the LCS Program, the Navy kept changing it's mind about the system performance, well no builder is going to be able to build on time or on-budget to such a changing buyer...the same may have happened here, the builders may have met the time constraint at the cost of quality...I don't know.  But the point is, how would a "bond" meet that?  The Bond protects the GOVERNMENT, not the bondee, executing the bond.  If the Bondee is jerked around by the government and can't meet the performance requirements of the contract, do they lose the bond?  If that happens why contract with the government?  Contracts already have non-performance clauses in them, what would a bond requirement to better?
 
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arodrig6       9/3/2008 12:06:29 AM

I guess that the idea of requiring a surety bond preliminary to the government's contracting for a ship is not a viable option.

Actually, there is something close to this - the default conditions of the FAR stipulate that if a contractor defaults on a contract they can lose the ability to have future bids considered on ANY future federal contract. For a defense contractor that can essentially mean the company is kaput. There is also the possibility of late delivery fines or decreased payment if the acceptance criteria are met.
 
However,  the problem that the government runs into (in defense procurement and other areas) is that the there is insufficient diversity in the marketplace to really support competitive bidding.  Consider the JSF - there were two bidders. For naval construction there are how many shipyards to choose from? - not many. In that sort of environment, there is not a lot the DoD can do to enforce good behavior from a contractor - they could invoke the default clause and kill the company, but then they would have no one to build their ships/airplanes/etc...  One way around this is to allow foreign companies to bid, but many people (from Congress to the press to the military to domestic industry) don't like the idea of relying on off-shore industry to protect the country.
 
Another source of problems is changing criteria from the DoD and insecure funding. A project starts up, then gets canceled, then restarts, then the requirements are changed, so the contractor needs more money, so it gets canceled again, then restarted, then its 5 years later and the requirements need to be changed again, etc...
 
This is not to say that there aren't fundamental problems with how procurement is done. Ben Rich (director of the Lockheed Skunk Works) details a number of them in his book 'Skunk Works.'
 
 
 
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Mrbinga       9/4/2008 11:42:40 AM
So should we have any reasonable expectation that this ship will ever work?
 
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JFKY    mrbinga   9/4/2008 12:13:36 PM
Be cautious, if you listened to the media and the "commenteriat" you'd be convinced that the finest armoured combat team in the world, the M-1 and the M-2/3, were nothing but dogs...
 
Right now it is stylish to comment on the failure of the LPD-17.  This may or may not be true, notice we don't get any reports on the good points of the boat...I doubt that there is ANY program that has only bad points, so we are lacking any baseline to compare...how bad is the LD-17?  As compared to other lead vessels of various class, as compared to the testing standards, is 95% pass rate a "fail" as far as the navy is concerned?  Who knows, it's not really mentioned in many of the articles here is it?
 
Bottom-line: be cautious, a lot of this is like asking the EX-Husband's opinion of his former wife, you aren't going get the whole story...
 
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arodrig6       9/5/2008 1:10:04 PM

Right now it is stylish to comment on the failure of the LPD-17. 
It's always stylish to comment on the faults of a major government procurement (military or not). This is is because it gives everyone someone to be upset with, depending on your preference: "stupid" Congress, "warmongering" DoD, "greedy" contractors, "inattentive" public - pick your preferred demon and you can make a case to blame them. This makes a much better story than "Government Procurement Goes According to Plan"
 
There is probably a bit of shadenfreude in all these stories...

 
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