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Subject: Distributed Operations
longrifle    1/16/2007 10:57:51 PM
Does the Marine Corps intend to adopt the distributed operations platoon/squad design that they tested? I've read about the idea but never anything that says it had been implemented Marine Corps wide.
 
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BadNews       3/8/2007 3:44:10 PM




DO is not going to be a Corps wide, there are not going to be DO BNs I haven't heard anyone say that, They organic AT and bunker busting capabilty is going to remain with the BNs. Do is being much over blown by some, it is not as new a concept as some have posted here think. It is pretty much going to be used in asymetric warefare in a role quite similar to LRR, the emphasis is going to be on controlling the move,ment of irregular forces over wider areas by using CAS and arty to diruppurt movement.





It is not going to be used by every infantry unit, not in the assualt and not against conventional type forces. I for one am one who believes it is much over blown. The USMC is doing a lot of different things in the Iraq and Afganistan AO,s all of which are somewhat temporary, For example, one company in 1/8 is training up using 5 man fire teams right now, the reason, They are slated to be a HUMVEE mounted mobile patrol force, Gunner+ normal fireteam as an organic unit rather than a fireteam using a non organic It is nothing special, just a temporary adaptation to the mission, That unit also converted the weapons sqd to a forth rifle sqd, no need for 60 mm mortars in their assigned mission





DO is capable of being augmented with an AT capability, but I personally and from the few I spoke with that know, do not intend that to be the norm at all. You will most likely see 1 DO capable plt per BLT in the near future, Not companies or BNs operating that way, but what you will see is some aspects of DO assimilated into the line BNs over time as lessons are learned.





If they want to use this as distributed, mounted patrols in Iraq or Afghanistan, then using Flyers or whatever ITV seems kinda silly.  They should be in M1114s, RG31s, etc..  Guess they can always be task-organized this way.

They already have a significant amount of organic firepower with an M2, Mk19 or M240 on each vehicle. 

I suppose they can always carry AT-4, SMAW-D, SRAW for busting the occasional strongpoint.

Still, just adding Javelin to the TOE of each squad as a "weapon's locker" option, would make these DO platoons viable in a conventional conflict. 



Hey Smitty, the Corps is not abandoning it's AT assets because of DO, these assest will remain at the BN like they always have. In fact, a USMC inf bn is TOE'd with 2 more Javelins then the US Army counterpart. There are still going to be 18 SMAAws in the BN, I don't think anyone changed that.
The Javelin's have always been a BN assest in the corps, and can be tasked to any subordinate company within the BN or as a stand alone Unit . The company will still have 6 SMAAWS . DO is just a concept of widening the area of control for a platoon specific to an asymetric threat. Even the bigest D proponants will tell you, there just aren't going to be DO BNs
 
As it is right now, the Corps is just field testing concepts particular to their area of operations, as DO matures, I am positive it will change it's look several times.
 
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B.Smitty       3/8/2007 4:19:03 PM


Hey Smitty, the Corps is not abandoning it's AT assets because of DO, these assest will remain at the BN like they always have. In fact, a USMC inf bn is TOE'd with 2 more Javelins then the US Army counterpart. There are still going to be 18 SMAAws in the BN, I don't think anyone changed that.

The Javelin's have always been a BN assest in the corps, and can be tasked to any subordinate company within the BN or as a stand alone Unit . The company will still have 6 SMAAWS . DO is just a concept of widening the area of control for a platoon specific to an asymetric threat. Even the bigest D proponants will tell you, there just aren't going to be DO BNs

 

As it is right now, the Corps is just field testing concepts particular to their area of operations, as DO matures, I am positive it will change it's look several times.


I figured the Corps wasn't abandoning it's AT capabilities. 

Guess my point was DO platoons will HAVE to have Javelins tasked to them if they're expected to fight a conventional mechanized opponent. 

I can see tasking SMAAWS or Javelins to DO platoons as needed, but do they have the extra seats in their ITVs/Flyers?  There's already four guys in each vehicle. How many more (plus kit), can they handle? 

 
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BadNews       3/8/2007 4:56:10 PM





Hey Smitty, the Corps is not abandoning it's AT assets because of DO, these assest will remain at the BN like they always have. In fact, a USMC inf bn is TOE'd with 2 more Javelins then the US Army counterpart. There are still going to be 18 SMAAws in the BN, I don't think anyone changed that.



The Javelin's have always been a BN assest in the corps, and can be tasked to any subordinate company within the BN or as a stand alone Unit . The company will still have 6 SMAAWS . DO is just a concept of widening the area of control for a platoon specific to an asymetric threat. Even the bigest D proponants will tell you, there just aren't going to be DO BNs



 



As it is right now, the Corps is just field testing concepts particular to their area of operations, as DO matures, I am positive it will change it's look several times.




I figured the Corps wasn't abandoning it's AT capabilities. 


Guess my point was DO platoons will HAVE to have Javelins tasked to
them if they're expected to fight a conventional mechanized opponent. 

I can see tasking SMAAWS or Javelins to DO platoons as needed, but do they have the extra seats in their ITVs/Flyers?  There's already four guys in each vehicle. How many more (plus kit), can they handle? 


The DO Mobility concepot calls for 11 vehicles each with a boat space of 5, the TO calls four four each, this alots 11 additional seats for a USMC DO PLT or three Javelin Teams or three SMAAW teams or three 60 mm mortar sections So I suppose that would not be a major problem.
 
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BadNews    Corection   3/8/2007 4:59:28 PM
That would be 5 smaaw teams, or  javelin teams or 3 60 mm mortar teams
 
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B.Smitty       3/8/2007 5:08:15 PM


The DO Mobility concepot calls for 11 vehicles each with a boat space of 5, the TO calls four four each, this alots 11 additional seats for a USMC DO PLT or three Javelin Teams or three SMAAW teams or three 60 mm mortar sections So I suppose that would not be a major problem.


For some reason I thought it was just four per.  Ok, mobility is not a problem. 
 
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BadNews       3/8/2007 5:42:27 PM





The DO Mobility concepot calls for 11 vehicles each with a boat space of 5, the TO calls four four each, this alots 11 additional seats for a USMC DO PLT or three Javelin Teams or three SMAAW teams or three 60 mm mortar sections So I suppose that would not be a major problem.




For some reason I thought it was just four per.  Ok, mobility is not a problem. 

The Army version is set up for four, the USMC for five, however, I have read that the intent is for more comminality down the road, will be interesting to see which way they finally go
 
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Carl S       3/8/2007 8:20:05 PM
This last bit on weapons & seats reminds me of Commandant Grays observation: "I never saw a hill captured bya T/O platoon."  
 
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BadNews       3/8/2007 9:27:09 PM

This last bit on weapons & seats reminds me of Commandant Grays observation: "I never saw a hill captured bya T/O platoon."  


LOL, so true... But the equipment question was asked
 
Al Gray was one of the most Dynamic individuals that I had ever met, I served under him 4 times in my career, and each time was a pleasurable adventure. Especially when he was commandant
 
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longrifle       11/4/2007 6:23:20 PM
I'm going to post a William Lind article on distributed ops for the sake of controversy.  Whatever you might think about Lind, he at least provokes thought and debate.  My take?  He usually has a point, up to a point.  In this case he seems to place a little to much faith in unsupported light infantry, kind of like John English.  That might be fine for a partisan force but for an expeditionary force?  I seldom buy everything he says but he's always an interesting read.  I think most people will get something out of the article even if they don't agree with all of it.

On War #205
February 13, 2007

Distributed Ops or Dumb Ops?...

By William S. Lind

For some years, the U.S. Marine Corps has been playing with a concept called "Distributed Operations." On January 11, it issued a short paper over the signature of Lt. General J. F. Amos, the grandiloquently titled "Deputy Commandant for Combat Development and Integration" (I can remember when Marines would have choked on a title like that) which defines and explains the concept. Well, sort of.

To understand the paper, a bit of background helps. There are two potential definitions of distributed operations, one that could carry the Marine Corps forwards in important ways and another that is essentially a scam. In the first, distributed operations is just a new term for true light or Jaeger infantry. While both the Marine Corps-and the U. S. Army call their foot infantry "light," in terms of its tactics it is line infantry. True light infantry has always fought distributed, with small units operating beyond range of mutual support or supporting arms. Those small units have depended on their own weapons, lived largely off the land and fought very much like guerillas, with tactics based on an ambush mindset. Even 18th century light infantry used tactics we would consider modern; see J. F. C. Fuller's book British Light Infantry in the 18th Century or the fascinating diary of a Hessian Jaeger captain in the American Revolution, Johann Ewald.

If the Marine Corps adopted true light infantry tactics under the label "distributed operations," it would extend its maneuver warfare doctrine in a logical and useful way. It would also adapt its infantry to Fourth Generation war; as the FMFM-1A notes, what states need most to fight 4GW enemies is lots of light infantry.

But there is another definition of distributed operations lurking in dark corners at Quantico. This definition would use distributed ops as a new buzzword for Sea Dragon, a pseudo-concept the Marine Corps came up with in the 1990s to justify programs. Sea Dragon sent little teams of Marines wandering around the countryside essentially as forward observers, whose purpose was to call in remote, hi-tech fires.

Unlike light infantry, the teams could not depend on their own weapons, which meant that by the time the hi-tech fires got there, they would be dead. Sea Dragon represented the ultimate wet dream of the French Army of the 1930s, an army reduced to nothing but forward observers and artillery. It was bunk.

So which way does the January 11 paper go? Unfortunately, it is too muddled to tell. On the one hand, it includes a long quote from my oId friend Jeff Record on the importance of light infantry in small wars. On the other, it includes a long list of the usual big-bucks programs"MRAP, EFV, JLTV, LAV, V-22, CH53K," L-70 class Zeppelins etc.which distributed ops supposedly justifies. Oddly, successful light infantry like Hezbollah's doesn't have any of those Wunderwaffe. This kind of random program justification smells suspiciously like a disinterred Sea Dragon.

The paper gives a formal definition of distributed operations which clarifies nothing beyond continued intellectual confusion and Marines' inability to write:

Distributed operations is a technique applied to an appropriate situation wherein units are separated beyond the limits of mutual support. Distributed operations are practiced by general purpose forces, operating with deliberate dispersion, where necessary and tactically p

 
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SCCOMarine       11/4/2007 11:26:11 PM

I liked the article.  I mentioned it on this site a few months ago. 

 

But I think its important to know 2 things, 1) his history with the Corps and 2) to key in on the heart of his issue.

 

Lind has a long history w/ the Marine Corps.  He helped write, write as in articulate, its doctrine on Maneuver Warfare.  He didnt help design MW, however he did help the Corps translate Doctrine into written text to be understood by all Marines; which means he has a thorough understanding of MW as an Operating Concept.

 

With that said, it must also be understood that by definition DO is an extension MW.  Meaning MW is the USMCs base Operating Concept, which makes DO an enabler.
 

Background:
 
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