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Subject: Distributed Operations
longrifle    1/16/2007 10:57:51 PM
Does the Marine Corps intend to adopt the distributed operations platoon/squad design that they tested? I've read about the idea but never anything that says it had been implemented Marine Corps wide.
 
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Carl S       1/17/2007 7:02:36 PM
Yes & no.  There were some 'problems' that emerged in the test,that wernt easily solved.   The Marines are still placing a increased amount of responsibility on the squad & team leaders,  the limits of autonomous squads are being pushed outwards.  In the long run I doubt the "distributed ops" concept as tested will emerge again.  
 
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Carl S       2/6/2007 7:18:06 AM
The Febuary issue of the Marine Corps Gazette has two briefs on current Distirbuted Ops.   Questions about training emerge.  Implication is high levels of individual & tema skill are essential.
 
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BadNews       2/10/2007 10:57:59 AM
We'll know soon as there is a MEU about to deploy that has DO capable company in it's current configuration. There are some problems with T/e but I think these are being addressed. In the long run I have read that the intent would be one DO capable company per BLT  For example when the MEU would deploy before One Company would be Light Infantry deployed via helo, One company infantry mech with AAV and one company Light infantry either wheel mobile or Helo as required.
 
From what I have read at Warfighting Lab site, intent is One Co lt Infantry, One Company Mech, One Company DO capable
 
I disagree that the Corps will probably not go with DO in the future, I think as long as GWOT is on the horizon there will be some incarnation of this concept. Like anything in th Corps, it will be ever evoving though, and may take on several configurations before any final config is fielded
 
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BadNews       2/10/2007 10:59:44 AM
And everything that I have read about it is clear that training issues abound, this concept is going to require Hybred Grunts which take time to develop
 
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BadNews       2/26/2007 7:35:26 PM
www.bataviahosting.com/mil/dops.pdf  This is an unclassified breakdown of the Marine Distributed Ops Concept.
 
Things to note. DO is not going to replace the Marine Squad/PLT organization as awhole, the current thinking is one distributed OPS PLT per MEU. If you read this Doc, especiallly at the planned operations for the DO, that will be self explainitory
 
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BadNews    Sorry   2/26/2007 7:37:36 PM
www.bataviahosting.com/mil/dops.pdf
 
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Carl S       3/8/2007 7:09:55 AM
"I disagree that the Corps will probably not go with DO in the future,"

I dont see anyone in the decision loop arguing against DO.  The debate is over what of many ideas shoved under that buzz word are actually practical   It has been clear from the various exercises that some ideas included under the umbrella of DO a few years ago were not working as advertised.  In the Febuary issue of the Marine Corps Gazette  there is a revealing artical by Col. Goulding & a second by Maj. Lewis.  Goulding (now retired) was a stake holder in advancing DO.  Even he notes a couple very negative points in his analysis of DO as it currently exists.

Maj Lewis makes the point that the essentials of DO are techniques or tactics the USMC was already practicing.  The testing & disscussion of DO runs back several years, before the term Distributed Ops came to use.    Without the buzzword they would be recognizable to the Marines who fought in Nicaragua vs Sandino, or the US Army v the Phillpines Insurrection a century ago.  The problems with some of the techniques in the test exercises would also be recognizable to those veterans.
 
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B.Smitty       3/8/2007 8:31:32 AM

www.bataviahosting.com/mil/dops.pdf


Interesting.  They don't appear to have any standard AT/Bunker Busting capability.  Where's the SMAW or Javelin?  Seems like distributed platoons would have a far greater need for organic AT capability than a standard platoon.
 
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BadNews       3/8/2007 10:25:16 AM




www.bataviahosting.com/mil/dops.pdf




Interesting.  They don't appear to have any standard AT/Bunker Busting capability.  Where's the SMAW or Javelin?  Seems like distributed platoons would have a far greater need for organic AT capability than a standard platoon.

DO is not going to be a Corps wide, there are not going to be DO BNs I haven't heard anyone say that, They organic AT and bunker busting capabilty is going to remain with the BNs. Do is being much over blown by some, it is not as new a concept as some have posted here think. It is pretty much going to be used in asymetric warefare in a role quite similar to LRR, the emphasis is going to be on controlling the move,ment of irregular forces over wider areas by using CAS and arty to diruppurt movement.
It is not going to be used by every infantry unit, not in the assualt and not against conventional type forces. I for one am one who believes it is much over blown. The USMC is doing a lot of different things in the Iraq and Afganistan AO,s all of which are somewhat temporary, For example, one company in 1/8 is training up using 5 man fire teams right now, the reason, They are slated to be a HUMVEE mounted mobile patrol force, Gunner+ normal fireteam as an organic unit rather than a fireteam using a non organic It is nothing special, just a temporary adaptation to the mission, That unit also converted the weapons sqd to a forth rifle sqd, no need for 60 mm mortars in their assigned mission
 
DO is capable of being augmented with an AT capability, but I personally and from the few I spoke with that know, do not intend that to be the norm at all. You will most likely see 1 DO capable plt per BLT in the near future, Not companies or BNs operating that way, but what you will see is some aspects of DO assimilated into the line BNs over time as lessons are learned.
 
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B.Smitty       3/8/2007 1:27:46 PM

DO is not going to be a Corps wide, there are not going to be DO BNs I haven't heard anyone say that, They organic AT and bunker busting capabilty is going to remain with the BNs. Do is being much over blown by some, it is not as new a concept as some have posted here think. It is pretty much going to be used in asymetric warefare in a role quite similar to LRR, the emphasis is going to be on controlling the move,ment of irregular forces over wider areas by using CAS and arty to diruppurt movement.


It is not going to be used by every infantry unit, not in the assualt and not against conventional type forces. I for one am one who believes it is much over blown. The USMC is doing a lot of different things in the Iraq and Afganistan AO,s all of which are somewhat temporary, For example, one company in 1/8 is training up using 5 man fire teams right now, the reason, They are slated to be a HUMVEE mounted mobile patrol force, Gunner+ normal fireteam as an organic unit rather than a fireteam using a non organic It is nothing special, just a temporary adaptation to the mission, That unit also converted the weapons sqd to a forth rifle sqd, no need for 60 mm mortars in their assigned mission


DO is capable of being augmented with an AT capability, but I personally and from the few I spoke with that know, do not intend that to be the norm at all. You will most likely see 1 DO capable plt per BLT in the near future, Not companies or BNs operating that way, but what you will see is some aspects of DO assimilated into the line BNs over time as lessons are learned.



If they want to use this as distributed, mounted patrols in Iraq or Afghanistan, then using Flyers or whatever ITV seems kinda silly.  They should be in M1114s, RG31s, etc..  Guess they can always be task-organized this way.

They already have a significant amount of organic firepower with an M2, Mk19 or M240 on each vehicle. 

I suppose they can always carry AT-4, SMAW-D, SRAW for busting the occasional strongpoint.

Still, just adding Javelin to the TOE of each squad as a "weapon's locker" option, would make these DO platoons viable in a conventional conflict. 


 
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BadNews       3/8/2007 3:44:10 PM




DO is not going to be a Corps wide, there are not going to be DO BNs I haven't heard anyone say that, They organic AT and bunker busting capabilty is going to remain with the BNs. Do is being much over blown by some, it is not as new a concept as some have posted here think. It is pretty much going to be used in asymetric warefare in a role quite similar to LRR, the emphasis is going to be on controlling the move,ment of irregular forces over wider areas by using CAS and arty to diruppurt movement.





It is not going to be used by every infantry unit, not in the assualt and not against conventional type forces. I for one am one who believes it is much over blown. The USMC is doing a lot of different things in the Iraq and Afganistan AO,s all of which are somewhat temporary, For example, one company in 1/8 is training up using 5 man fire teams right now, the reason, They are slated to be a HUMVEE mounted mobile patrol force, Gunner+ normal fireteam as an organic unit rather than a fireteam using a non organic It is nothing special, just a temporary adaptation to the mission, That unit also converted the weapons sqd to a forth rifle sqd, no need for 60 mm mortars in their assigned mission





DO is capable of being augmented with an AT capability, but I personally and from the few I spoke with that know, do not intend that to be the norm at all. You will most likely see 1 DO capable plt per BLT in the near future, Not companies or BNs operating that way, but what you will see is some aspects of DO assimilated into the line BNs over time as lessons are learned.





If they want to use this as distributed, mounted patrols in Iraq or Afghanistan, then using Flyers or whatever ITV seems kinda silly.  They should be in M1114s, RG31s, etc..  Guess they can always be task-organized this way.

They already have a significant amount of organic firepower with an M2, Mk19 or M240 on each vehicle. 

I suppose they can always carry AT-4, SMAW-D, SRAW for busting the occasional strongpoint.

Still, just adding Javelin to the TOE of each squad as a "weapon's locker" option, would make these DO platoons viable in a conventional conflict. 



Hey Smitty, the Corps is not abandoning it's AT assets because of DO, these assest will remain at the BN like they always have. In fact, a USMC inf bn is TOE'd with 2 more Javelins then the US Army counterpart. There are still going to be 18 SMAAws in the BN, I don't think anyone changed that.
The Javelin's have always been a BN assest in the corps, and can be tasked to any subordinate company within the BN or as a stand alone Unit . The company will still have 6 SMAAWS . DO is just a concept of widening the area of control for a platoon specific to an asymetric threat. Even the bigest D proponants will tell you, there just aren't going to be DO BNs
 
As it is right now, the Corps is just field testing concepts particular to their area of operations, as DO matures, I am positive it will change it's look several times.
 
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B.Smitty       3/8/2007 4:19:03 PM


Hey Smitty, the Corps is not abandoning it's AT assets because of DO, these assest will remain at the BN like they always have. In fact, a USMC inf bn is TOE'd with 2 more Javelins then the US Army counterpart. There are still going to be 18 SMAAws in the BN, I don't think anyone changed that.

The Javelin's have always been a BN assest in the corps, and can be tasked to any subordinate company within the BN or as a stand alone Unit . The company will still have 6 SMAAWS . DO is just a concept of widening the area of control for a platoon specific to an asymetric threat. Even the bigest D proponants will tell you, there just aren't going to be DO BNs

 

As it is right now, the Corps is just field testing concepts particular to their area of operations, as DO matures, I am positive it will change it's look several times.


I figured the Corps wasn't abandoning it's AT capabilities. 

Guess my point was DO platoons will HAVE to have Javelins tasked to them if they're expected to fight a conventional mechanized opponent. 

I can see tasking SMAAWS or Javelins to DO platoons as needed, but do they have the extra seats in their ITVs/Flyers?  There's already four guys in each vehicle. How many more (plus kit), can they handle? 

 
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BadNews       3/8/2007 4:56:10 PM





Hey Smitty, the Corps is not abandoning it's AT assets because of DO, these assest will remain at the BN like they always have. In fact, a USMC inf bn is TOE'd with 2 more Javelins then the US Army counterpart. There are still going to be 18 SMAAws in the BN, I don't think anyone changed that.



The Javelin's have always been a BN assest in the corps, and can be tasked to any subordinate company within the BN or as a stand alone Unit . The company will still have 6 SMAAWS . DO is just a concept of widening the area of control for a platoon specific to an asymetric threat. Even the bigest D proponants will tell you, there just aren't going to be DO BNs



 



As it is right now, the Corps is just field testing concepts particular to their area of operations, as DO matures, I am positive it will change it's look several times.




I figured the Corps wasn't abandoning it's AT capabilities. 


Guess my point was DO platoons will HAVE to have Javelins tasked to
them if they're expected to fight a conventional mechanized opponent. 

I can see tasking SMAAWS or Javelins to DO platoons as needed, but do they have the extra seats in their ITVs/Flyers?  There's already four guys in each vehicle. How many more (plus kit), can they handle? 


The DO Mobility concepot calls for 11 vehicles each with a boat space of 5, the TO calls four four each, this alots 11 additional seats for a USMC DO PLT or three Javelin Teams or three SMAAW teams or three 60 mm mortar sections So I suppose that would not be a major problem.
 
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BadNews    Corection   3/8/2007 4:59:28 PM
That would be 5 smaaw teams, or  javelin teams or 3 60 mm mortar teams
 
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B.Smitty       3/8/2007 5:08:15 PM


The DO Mobility concepot calls for 11 vehicles each with a boat space of 5, the TO calls four four each, this alots 11 additional seats for a USMC DO PLT or three Javelin Teams or three SMAAW teams or three 60 mm mortar sections So I suppose that would not be a major problem.


For some reason I thought it was just four per.  Ok, mobility is not a problem. 
 
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