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Subject: New USMC Section organisation
interestedamateur    2/7/2006 9:53:06 AM
Some news in this weeks JDW regarding this. Main facts:

- Infantry sections reduced to 12 men.
- The spare 3 men are going to the platoon HQ unit to form a 2nd platoon HQ (under the Platoon Sergeant) so as to provide continuous 24 hr platoon C2. Aim is to allow dispersed operations over a wide area.
- Each section will contain a rifleman who can call in close air support

This looks sensible (a bit like a SOG A-team), but won't the fact that a section leader is now presumably part of a fire-team make his job much harder? The 1/3 Marines have already tested this concept in Iraq by the way.
 
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stinger       11/5/2007 1:01:48 AM
referring to the 10 man squad the Germans had in ww2 built around a mg-42 gun team is pretty impressive, i don't know how many squads they had in a platoon, but if somebody know the mtoe of that, that would be cool. also does the current German army still made up into a 10 man squad ??thank you
 
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SCCOMarine       11/5/2007 1:12:20 PM

If you ask me - okay, so nobody did, I'll tell you anyway  - things are more of a squad fight than ever.  With that in mind.....the USMC should stick with the traditional 13 man squad of three fire teams. 
I thought the C2 team at squad level sounded interesting to begin with.  The more I think about the proposal the more it seems too specialized.  It seems like the squad wouldn't be so much of a rifle squad anymore but a big recon/forward observer/CAS direction team.  Is that really what's needed in the "Three block war?"


There,s 1 thing you have to keep in mind about that, the DO Squad Ldr is being trained to handle up to 6 additional Marines as attachments, depending on the mission.

 

You have to remember that in the mindset of mission flexibility the 12man squad(C2 & 2xFTs) is just a base.  A Marine BN Weapons Co is huge, there,s more than enough MG/Assault/Mortarmen to beef up the squads when missions dictate. 

 

There,s also talk of attaching CI/HumInt, UAV, and SigInt Dets to the Squads, the potential Task List is long.  

 

That C2 capability is necessary to be able to operate in those various formations for those missions.

 

Also the DO squad will not always operate in that structure, which is why they designed no changes to the DO Plts T/O and Personnel.  Making it able to switch back & forth btw DO and Traditional Structure depending on the mission.

 
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SCCOMarine       11/5/2007 1:16:06 PM
Carl S has it "Semper Flexibility"
 
But in my day we call it "Semper Gumbee"
 
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longrifle       11/5/2007 10:04:14 PM
"referring to the 10 man squad the Germans had in ww2 built around a mg-42 gun team is pretty impressive, i don't know how many squads they had in a platoon, but if somebody know the mtoe of that, that would be cool. also does the current German army still made up into a 10 man squad ??thank you" - stinger

I've got a link to a translation of the WWII German squad manual.  It's a lengthy pdf document of 129 pages but it's worth printing out and saving for students of the rifle/infantry squad.

h**p://ahecwebdds.carlisle.army.mil/Data/tmp/linearize_objYAsFmXks3WgmXh9DXXTYBjpHeRrj04STIHw+HaHE8CGo5E3lnZvi8WV+Sih0SjGTtvtfEgO60_sLHep+SQTTvQCFAsLTddoGimPjBj9mK09PAslnIxyQ__.pdf
 

 
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longrifle       11/5/2007 10:08:00 PM
Sorry that link made the page so broad, I know that makes reading troublesome, but that's the only way I could get it to work. You'll have to cut and paste it in.  It's a worthwhile document for the historical factor alone.
 
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Sabre       11/19/2007 1:35:06 PM
Of course, it varied depending on the type of division and what year it was, but IIRC, German infantry platoons generally had 4 squads of 10-men each, at least in the beginning.
I'm a little puzzled about why people are so eager to dump the M249 SAW.  I loved that weapon, it was a dream to fire and you could carry plenty of ammunition (a 100 round-belt of 7.62 weighs about 7 pounds - that is no joke, when you are carrying 600 rounds).
Granted, there is much to be said for the M240 and MG3 / MG42... and the titanium M240 cuts unloaded weight down to 17 pounds (!) - I wouldn't have believed that, but I have held one... that certainly beats the M60 that I had to lug around the woods in N. Carolina.  I would certainly be a fan of having an M240 in each squad, along with at least 1 SAW, in case the 240 "went down" for whatever reason.
 
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Carl S       11/22/2007 10:01:18 PM
"
"Again, here's two different examples of tactical success from WWII: the USMC settled on a 13 man squad, subdivided into three fire teams, with three M1s and one BAR per team,"  This is oversimplyfying a bit.  The squad described was set in early-mid 1944, but the company contiued to evolve.  MMG were continued to be added to the company, and in most battles the battlaion HMG were distributed to the companys.  It was not unusual for a company commander in late 1944 or 1945 to have up to ten MMG/HMG at hand.  Distributing part of these down to squad level was not unusual.  There also the engineer trained assualt teams in the battalions/companys of the late war.  These were distributed through the company and in many cases made a fourth or fifth (a MMG being the other) team in a squad.



 


 
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Carl S       11/22/2007 10:03:45 PM
Carl S has it "Semper Flexibility"
 
But in my day we call it "Semper Gumbee"
 
That was familar as well, but I thought the term too obscure for the others.
 
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Carl S       11/22/2007 10:08:05 PM
"If a true AR is adopted I'd drop the SAW altogether for a GPMG team and a DM but the general ideal is the same.  Guns will often be attached directly to squads anyway in, especially in a "Three block war," so formalize the doctrine.  "

Not sure what you mean here?  Formalize the doctrine of attaching MG to squads when needed?  Or make a MG a permanent part of the squad?  
 
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ambush    Squad Size   11/23/2007 2:23:30 PM
 

 

The argument seems to boil down to two general arguments; size of the rifle squad and how it is to be equipped.

  As for size we have the universal truth from General Gray and already posted: "I never saw a hill captured by a TO platoon."

 If we accept that even by chance you go into battle with a full strength squad attrition over time will not leave it that way.   So look at it this way: If you start out with a 13 man Squad and attrition reduces by 1/3rd you still have a 9 man squad. If you start out with a 9 man squad then you are down to 6 with same rate of attrition.

Another factor in the large squads favor is the distribution of the load they have to carry. If you make GPMGs or other weapons part of the squad TO&E or attach them it means more ammunition and equipment that must be hauled around by the squad. The Marines of today are already carrying around more than I had to.  A reduced squad leaves fewer bodies to spread that burden to.

 

  If distributed Ops are in  the future you can look to large squads anyway either through an increased TO&E or more likely through attachments.  A large 3 Fire Team Squad lends itself to adaptation to  DO with its 3 Fire team leaders than does a smaller squad.

 
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longrifle       11/23/2007 11:37:41 PM
Carl,

I mean that the GPMG should be a permanent part of the squad like the Germans had it, not just attached out from company or platoon as needed after the American fashion; after all, when the shooting starts the gun often finds itself at squad level anyway.

Big squads are better than small ones so go with three fire teams: one heavy team made up of a GPMG crew and DM; two lighter teams for clearing.

Why have the guns centralized in a company or platoon weapons squad if it's usually a squad fight?   The guns could still be pulled out of the squads and massed at platoon level, if needed, just as they are often attached downward now.  Just organize for the combined arms squad fight if that's what's usually encountered.  If really is usually a squad fight - a "three block war" and all that - then put the guns permanently in the squads.  We already know it will work.

I agree that General Gray had a valuable point to make; however, does that mean that squad organization - or any organization - is not to be refined or altered as needed?  After all, at one time it was decided that we needed to break up the machine gun battalions of the WWI era.  Might we not need to break up company and platoon MG squads now?

Just thoughts.

 
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Carl S       11/24/2007 8:10:02 PM
One of the reasons the company weapons platoon was strengthed in the 1980-90s as a unit was to improve the training and ultimatly effectiveness of the wepons crews.  In the the 1970s when I begain my service the weapons plt existed largely as a administrative unit and the MG of the company were effectively plt/squad weapons.  The veteran officers who were reaching rank with influence were concerned that the MG teams of the 1970s were not nearly as effective as they should be.  There was also the matter of the mortars and assualt rockets that were to be added back to the rifle company.  Command of the wpns plt was a 2dtLt when available or more often a additional duty of the company XO.   
 The veterans belived that the average company commander could not single handely train the Lts & Sgts to the necessary level.
 
A program to provide long service warrant officers as weapons plt commanders was instituted.  The desire was for specialists or experts in infantry weapons able to bring the training and tactical use well above the level achiveable with junior Lts or junior NCOs.  (The Warrant was also to be trained as a company level fire support coordinator, to assist the company commander as well.)  

A second point is that the concepts of Fourth Generation Warfare, the Three Block War, or "we'll fight more of these gurilla wars" are seen as a broader context for USMC operations.  Not as replacement of other types of operations.  FMFM-1 that Gray had published makes it clear that flexibility & preperation for the full spectrum of warfare would be the doctrine.   Krulaks  full remarks concerning projected USMC operations and the Thee Block War reinforce the goal of full spectrum of warfare capability.  In 1986-87 my rifle company commander Cpt Scott made it clear that the need to mass or distribute the companys heaviest weapons was situational.  Had the MG been exclusivly a squad weapon suitable for independant squad combat it would interfere when he needed massed MG fires.  Just as using the MMG exclusively as a 'company battery' degraded squad/plt capabilitys.   We trained with the MMG in every possible configuration.  

I also spent three months with 3/6 when that battalion completed conversion to the two team squad.  Even officers wo had intially welcomed that reoganization were having second thoughts.  The concensus was the three team organization was superior to the two team squad as a starting base for the full array of squad operations.


 
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ambush       11/25/2007 1:31:16 PM

Carl,

I mean that the GPMG should be a permanent part of the squad like the Germans had it, not just attached out from company or platoon as needed after the American fashion; after all, when the shooting starts the gun often finds itself at squad level anyway.

Big squads are better than small ones so go with three fire teams: one heavy team made up of a GPMG crew and DM; two lighter teams for clearing.

Why have the guns centralized in a company or platoon weapons squad if it's usually a squad fight?   The guns could still be pulled out of the squads and massed at platoon level, if needed, just as they are often attached downward now.  Just organize for the combined arms squad fight if that's what's usually encountered.  If really is usually a squad fight - a "three block war" and all that - then put the guns permanently in the squads.  We already know it will work.

I agree that General Gray had a valuable point to make; however, does that mean that squad organization - or any organization - is not to be refined or altered as needed?  After all, at one time it was decided that we needed to break up the machine gun battalions of the WWI era.  Might we not need to break up company and platoon MG squads now?

Just thoughts.


 

 I think you need to keep some sort of consolidation and control of key weapon systems, instead of spreading them out.

 By spreading them out too far you run the risk of repeating the mistakes of the allies in 1940 France. The French had plenty of tanks and anti-tank weapons but they spread them out so everybody had some tank/anti-tank support but nobody had enough.

 

 Instead of giving our squads a GPMG we need to replace the light machinegun they already have (M-249) with a true squad automatic rifle. The M-249 has already proven less than perfect for room clearing/house to house combat. Many M-249 gunners pick up lighter, easier to handle weapons when going  into buildings. An M-240G will not be any easier to handle.

 Instead I favor an organization tested by the Marine Corps: The SAWS are pulled from the Rifle Squads and replaced with a Squad Automatic rifle such as the Colt AR or the Ultimax 100. One of the three platoon Rifle Squads is then converted to a weapons squad with M-249s used in a role they are really designed for -Light machineguns. I would go a step further and add SMAWS to the weapons squad or perhaps three 3 man LMG teams (necessary for carrying the spare barrel tripod and ammo) along with two 2-man SMAW teams. Or perhaps keep the Squad members level of training so they can be easily equipped with either the M-249 or SMAWS depending on METT-T.



 
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Yimmy       11/25/2007 1:51:46 PM

 If we accept that even by chance you go into battle with a full strength squad attrition over time will not leave it that way.   So look at it this way: If you start out with a 13 man Squad and attrition reduces by 1/3rd you still have a 9 man squad. If you start out with a 9 man squad then you are down to 6 with same rate of attrition.

That is not the only wat to consider the situation.
 
Alternatively, say you have 52 men.  Now you either have four squads/sections of 13 men, or two men short of six nine man sections.
 
Lose a 1/3rd of your manpower, leaving you with 35 men, and you reform into either two 13 man sections and a 9 man section, or three 9 man sections and an 8 man section.
 
 
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Yimmy       11/25/2007 2:23:00 PM

Big squads are better than small ones so go with three fire teams: one heavy team made up of a GPMG crew and DM; two lighter teams for clearing.

Why have the guns centralized in a company or platoon weapons squad if it's usually a squad fight?   The guns could still be pulled out of the squads and massed at platoon level, if needed, just as they are often attached downward now.  Just organize for the combined arms squad fight if that's what's usually encountered.
The above really does sound like the German WWII section, with the addition of more defined fire teams (which I expect occured in practice in the German squads, if not theory).
 
I would personally argue for more numerous, smaller sections, than fewer but larger sections.  I say this, because the more sections you have, the more actors you have in the battlespace, and so the greater your ability to maneuver your forces.  Larger sections, although equal in overall manpower, can not cover as much ground as multiple smaller sections, as a result of the limit of control (distance) the section commander has over his men.  Personal role radios don't have a very long range.  Of course you can break a section down into fire-teams, however this would mean each fire-team would need a full size manpacked radio, and would mean while one fire-team gained the experienced corporal, the other gained the less experienced lance corporal.  In addition, as an element a  6-8 man section can engage a 2-3 man enemy, while a fire-team will doubtfully be large enough to engage more than a lone enemy soldier in a prepared position going by classical doctrine.
 
Concerning the positioning of GPMG's, the British army have them at the platoon level, in the maneuver support section, in the light role, and at the battalion level as a platoon of the support company in the sustained fire role.  Personally, I think that a rifle or maneuver section should consist of identicle (two in a 6-8 man section, or three in a 10-13 man section) fire-teams.  I say this because the men will likely be of the same experience levels, be trained the same, and use the same SOP's.  In complex environments such as FIBUA, fire-teams and pairs will find themselves rotating around each-others roles, largelly as a means of necessity in securing multiple rooms in a large building, and especially in more lengthy engagements where periods of rest are required, in the principle of assault/suppress/rest.  However a different type of fire team, ie one equipped with GPMG's, could always be used in a certain role in the micro-fight, such as in the roles of beefing out the section command group and linkmen position in FIBUA.
 
I would suggest that is is a lot easier to break-up and give, than it is to take-away and form.  If section of x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x need a GPMG, they can be given y.y so equipped men, and the sections SOP's and framework will still work.  I would suggest that if you take x.x from x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x and y.y from y.y.y.y.y.y.y.y and q.q from q.q.q.q.q.q.q.q, and make a GPMG equipped section of x.x.y.y.q.q, I would expect it to be a clusterfuck long before it is decided who will command the new support section.
 
Looking at the section level fight in a hasty contact, it would be advantageous for the section to have an organic GPMG.  However looking at deliberate attacks, it makes a lot more sense for instance to have your three GPMG's centralised in an over-watch support position to cover your recce sorties, and then in a supporting position to support the break-in phase of a FIBUA assault on a building, than to have them fragmented in sections.  I think the GPMG soldiers have a lot more chance of achieving profesionalism and completing their mission if they are centralised together as standard, rather than being more a lose gathering of convinience for a particular mission.
 
Just some random thoughts. 
 
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