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Subject: SSK 6.5mm MPC
doggtag    8/12/2006 11:38:18 AM
For those interested in still trying resurrect a politically-sacrificed dead horse, SSK has come up with a new contender in the "5.56mm-just-won't-cut-it-anymore" debate. http://www.sskindustries.com/6_5mpc.htm>here it is courtesy of SSK's website The 6.5 MPC (Multi Purpose Cartridge) is a SSK development urged by Brian Hormberg (USMC) based on the 5.56 cartridge shortened and opened to 6.5 MM and the same OAL as the 5.56. In the M-16-AR-15 rifles it utilizes the 5.56 bolt and magazines as well as all other parts except the barrel itself. Its design adapts it to a short Close Quarter Battle rifle with a 12” barrel moving a 107 6.5 SMK at 2400 FPS with superior full auto controllability and excellent accuracy. The 12” barrel model easily puts it into the realistic 300+ yard combat category and longer barrels stretch that realistic combat range considerably further. Factory ammunition is not yet available for the 6.5 MPC; however we are working on that. Ready to load brass and dies are in stock. The 120 grain BT is near maximum bullet weight for good performance. 85 grain is about the least weight for good performance. Some 140 grain bullets may be used but ballistically are counterproductive. There is a good article in the latest (Summer 2006) Special Weapons For Military and Police magazine (by Stan Crist, pp 64-67 & p 89), $6.95 @ US newsstand price (displays until Nov 2006, so lots of time yet) http://www.special-weapons-magazine.com/>here's the magazine at its website, with additional ordering info and back issue information Now, this new round was developed to match the existing overall length of the 5.56mm ammunition, which it shares the same (albeit modified) case with, to still be able to fit all current 5.56mm hardware (magazines, belt-feed links, etc), with the only necessary change being a new barrel in this new caliber. It will match per-round capacity of all 5.56mm rounds (20 & 30 round clips, C-Mag 100 round drums, 200 round M249 cassettes, etc), the only difference being a slight weight increase (62-gr typical for 5.56 NATO vs 95-gr typical for 6.5 MPC) One of the oft-suggested more favorable replacements for the 5.56, the Remington 6.8mm SPC (which doesn't stack comparably in standard 5.56 magazines, allowing only 25 rounds instead of 30), compares as follows: keeping the same weight, it breaks down to: 5.56mm NATO- 10x30-rd mags = 300 rounds. 6.5mm MPC - 9x30-rd mags = 270 rounds. 6.8mm SPC - 7x25-rd mags = 175 rounds. Now the Remington 6.8mm SPC is said to offer the most superior performance in "5.56mm-compatible" hardware (can still use standard magazines, etc), while its closest competitor, the 6.5mm Grendell, has to have everything modified to accomodate its considerably-different cartridge profile (although offering much superior performance at extended ranges, with some suggestions putting its performance on par with 7.62mm NATO but in a smaller package). As for sheer round performance, p 89 of the magazine has a nice comparison chart, between the 5.56 62-gr NATO, 6.5 95-gr MPC and 6.8 115-gr SPC. At 200m range (within CQB), the 6.5 has more than 250 foot-lbs advantage (14.5" barrel) over the 5.56. At 500m range, the 6.5 still retains just shy of a 200 ft-lb advantage over the 5.56. Now, Stan Crist's article raises the issue that the round (6.5mm MPC) was designed with regards to field reports suggesting that 5.56 from 14.5" (and shorter, CQB) barrels was proving to lack the 5.56's potential it had from longer barrels which could exploit the high velecoity needed to make the round truly incapacitive (leading many to adopt the view that "controlled pairs" would overcome any definciencies on the single, lowered-velocity (when fired from shorter barrels) 5.56 ammunition. But that of course effectively reduces the number of engagements: what's the advantage of carrying 300 rounds when you can, by the "controlled pairs" book, only sustain 150 engagements?) There were numerous "official" suggestions/recommendations that the current 5.56mm NATO was proving "adequate" in current operations (with the higher-performance Mk262 round not being standard en-masse issue as compared to the typical 5.56 NATO.) But of course, this coming from the same administration who initially thought unarmored logistics vehicles and Humvess and troops lacking body armor would be sufficient and adequate-enough to complete the Iraq mission also. Now, we've all heard the arguments that "nobody wants to cough up the money to retool the most-commonly-used small arms ammunition/weapons in the midst of the current conflict." But SSK's new solution suggests only a barrel change (to the new caliber) is needed, with all other componenets of the M-4/M-16 AR family and M249 series LMG/SAW being fully compatible (gun loads, recoil stresses, ammo mags, etc). Now, there are reports from the field (bot
 
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Lawman    RE:Lawman   8/16/2006 6:50:43 PM
Well, it is probably better that Yimmy or someone more current answer this one, but from my experience, you could reload it reasonably quickly, but not what I would call rapid. The real question is what position you are in - I was mostly firing on the range, from the prone position, so there was room to move around a bit. The part I really disliked was the hand positioning - it just felt unnatural, and it made rapid aiming at multiple targets a bit difficult.
 
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Brock       4/28/2007 10:36:57 PM
I would  argue that replacing the M4/M16 series of rifles is comparatively cheap when one considers the cost of fighter jets. Jets are great in high intensity conflict, but do little to improve the combat effectiveness of soldiers in low-intensity urban wars. Dropping a GPS guided 500lbs bomb is not acceptable when a sniper is behind a wall that could be easily penetrated by a better rifle. How many rifles could be procured for the cost of 1 FA-22 Raptor at $150 million USD? If one figured each new assault rifle at about $1500/rifle...one Raptor costs the same as 100,000 new assault rifles! The US can't afford new assault rifles...what a bunch of crap! The US could easily replace all its assault rifles in a matter of a few years if it wanted too...especially if you consider that replacement rifles would likely cost less than $1500/rifle. Canada could afford to replace its small arms system. Personnally, I think the ideal new assault rifle is either FN SCAR, HK 416 or  FN2000. Pick the calibre 6.8mm SPC--if keeping the 7.62mm cartridge--or 6.5mm Grendel if transitioning to a new single assault rifle/GPMG/LMG cartridge.
 
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Lawman       4/29/2007 6:26:10 AM
Wow! Old thread!
 
The problems for switching rifle and calibre is the need to build up stocks of ammunition, and qualify everyone on the new equipment. From what I have heard, the newer M262 ammunition has sufficient hitting power - the real issue is just getting everyone to actually put it into the target. Rather than forking out for a new rifle, how about simply making the ACOG (or similar) sight standard issue? I know there would be problems with training everyone up, but ultimately it might pay off, especially with the numbers of non combat units in contact situations. The other thing would of course be to make the best ammunition available, i.e. M262 or one of the excellent match grade 5.56mm rounds?
 
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Jeff_F_F    Isn't size but how you use it.   4/29/2007 11:55:03 PM
If a theory says that something is true you might figure that the theory could be wrong.
 
If a field test says something you might think ti was biased.
 
But when theory and field tests are in perfect agreement, it should give you a clue that the theory is correct and that the field tests were legitimate. Hello.
 
Theory says that any round that does not hit the brain or spinal cord is incapable of reliably incapacitating a human being in less than 15 seconds. Even blowing the heart apart still leaves enough oxygenated blood in the brain to allow the victim to continue fighting at least this long.
 
Field tests say that larger bullets do not offer significantly improved stopping power. Suprise suprise. Same thing the theory says. Any hunter can testify that even with expanding bullets game doesn't just drop even if you hit it in the heart. Size has little or no impact on stopping power but does dramatically increase the combat load of a soldier. 5.56 is the best choice. Give it a rest.
 
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perfectgeneral2       7/18/2008 7:18:22 AM
The main arguement for an intermediate round isn't stopping power, it is logistics. For that arguement to stack up the total rounds used must be lighter than those they replace. I can't see this happening with the Grendel unless it gets a plastic case. In  any case, the lightness of plastic Grendel rounds for previously 7.62 NATO weapons will lead to more automatic weapons fire until the logistic load is the same. I still think that it is worth doing though, as you have one less bullet type and the production run for the one type is greater (cheaper in the long run).
 
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Nichevo       7/20/2008 5:14:13 AM
Since people are generally ok with the 5.56 bullets at adequate velocity, what about a cartridge designed to burn faster and give more velocity in shorter barrels, or just a 'magnum' loading in the same case?  More MV heals causes all wounds.
 
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