Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept?

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dobrodan Su-16-d 10/29/2005 8:31:39 PM

Actually, the Keltec Su-16-d would be a perfect REMF-gun. Light, cheap, compact, simple, and uses the same ammo and mags as the M16. It should also be possible to chamber in both 6.8 and 6.5 Grendel if needed. link

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Yimmy RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept? 10/29/2005 9:12:39 PM

I would rather like to see the British army move towards H&K to supply our small arms. They make a complete family of top-notch weapons, and if we bought them (again), we would have a stable source of spares for the lot, at very reasonable prices due to bulk buying. Our Browning HP's must be getting exceptionately long in the tooth now, where H&K's new 4.6mm pistol could come in, our old FN MAG GPMG's could be replaced by the new H&K 7.62mm GPMG, and we could adopt their automatic grenade launcher as a new capability. To the point of the thread, we could do away completely with 5.56mm, by introducing the H&K MP7 PDW to 3rd line soldiers, it sharing the same 4.6mm armour piercing round as the H&K pistol, while infantry could use the new H&K 416, a AR15 varient with short stroke gas piston in 7.62mm, which could be supported by the new H&K GPMG in the light role with bipod and belt bag.

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dobrodan RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept? 10/30/2005 8:54:21 AM

New HK 7.62mm GPMG? Where? The only new MG from HK so far is the 5.56mm MG-43... However, Im sure that HK will develop a 7.62 version really fast if there is demand for it...

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Yimmy RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept? 10/30/2005 9:10:00 AM

There is a rumour they are already developing a 7.62mm version of the MG-43. Neither weapon has finished testing yet I don't believe. If it's wrong, we could simply adopt the Mk48 instead, the scaled up Minimi. link

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dobrodan RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept? 10/30/2005 9:40:25 AM

The 5.56 MG-43 is adopted by the German army as the MG-4 (I believe that is the official name)

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Yimmy RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept? 10/30/2005 9:52:05 AM

It's been given the name MG-4, but I don't know if any have been delivered yet.

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dobrodan RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept? 10/30/2005 10:22:36 AM

Some MG-4s has been delivered, but its not fully implemented yet.

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YelliChink RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept? 10/30/2005 11:58:49 AM

I can't see any tactical difference between MG4 and M249 SAW. It just look like a M249 minus magazine feed. The Spanish has CETME Ameli for a long time which is exactly the same thing. M60E3/E4 would be a better choice for soldiers like Kurt Angle (or JBL, whatever). MP7 has a muzzle velocity too low, and it decreases the penetrability of the bullet even in short range. It makes not much difference for law enforcement, but it make a lot differences for military personnel. Train logistic personnels as infantrymen first, issue standard infantry weapons to them, not tactically inferior weapons.

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dobrodan RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept? 10/30/2005 12:34:09 PM

I believe the MG-43 is supposed to be more reliable than the M249. The Ameli I think was not very reliable, although it was extremely light. I do however believe that 5.56 is a too small calibre for a machinegun, and that beltfed MGs should only be used for static or mounted duty. For infantry, the ideal squad level support-weapon probably would be the automatic rifle/machine-rifle -type weapon. If ammo and mags could be interchangeable with assaultrifles, it would be near perfect. Every fire-team should consist of three soldiers; one teamleader, one machinerifle gunner, and one assistant gunner. The problem with REMFs is that they often think of the weapon as a burden, especially if there is no immediate threat to them. A gun like the SU-16 would be perfect for them, as it weighs next to nothing, and is a very practical sized weapon. Its even piston-driven. While I agree on training REMFs like infantry, they normally is better off with a weapon that doesn´t get in the way, and can be strapped to them at all times.

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YelliChink RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept? 10/30/2005 2:28:26 PM

Belt-fed weapons have their use. I don't think going back to ZB26s, Brens or BARs is a good idea, especially when you need lots of fire power for suppress fire or let the enemy think that you have lots of fire power in some places. The only problem for M249-type weapon is that the mag-fed machanism always causes some troubles. M249 is constructed with aluminum receiver, and the quality of these receivers are not consistent. Taiwanese had made same weapon called T75 LMG which is made with steel receiver. The quality is better than FN Minimi, and of course, weighs 1kg more than Minimi. T75 LMG fits well with Taiwanese ammunition and mags, but Minimi just doesn't fit T65 mags well. The other reason that I hate PDW type weapons so much is that it creates a false sense of safety. With proper designed rigs and webbings, one can even hold and shoot 2 MP7s John Wu style. That's a lot of fire power, ostensibly. But if you study carefully how these toys can penetrate concrete walls, brick walls, civilian vehicles, sand bags, body armors and wood planks, you'll find that it is an effective weapon within 100m only, which is not very much better than conventional SMGs. Anyone complaining about how heavy M4A1 with 300 rounds deserves more PTs! I'm from Taiwan and was in the ROCA for a while. We have the infantry teams exactly as what you described. The team leader is issued with FN Minimi while two others have T65K2 (equivalent to M16A2) and T65K2+T85 (equivalent to M16A2+M203). But it is unwise to keep the team set up without using it wisely and flexibly. After all, squad is the basic infantry fire unit, not teams. I think that the US Army and USMC should bring M60 back in large quantity. Newer M60E3/E4 had almost all the earlier M60 bugs eliminated and became a true reliable piece of weapon. M60s are not as accurate as M240s thanks for the lighter weight, but it doesn't matter for troops in MOUT; they won't have many opportunities for 800m shoot outs. The penetrability of 7.62NATO can tear through most of unfortified modern urban buildings within 200m. And the best thing is that a big black guy can operate M60 as his personal weapon, while M240 is considered a crew-operated weapon. It is too bad that such a fine piece of weapon only seen service in SOP today.

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