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Subject: Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept?
Schackleford    10/18/2005 7:54:37 AM
Prior to the Operation Iraqi Freedom and the War on Terror, PDW's like the Heckler & Koch MP-7 or the Fabrique Nationale P-90 were being considered as alternatives to issuing rear line troops with assault rifles.
The rationale went that only infantry needed expensive and complex assault rifles since rear line troops were not likely to see "real" combat, only self defence skirmishes.
But in Iraq, engineers, staff, artillerists etc. are all being used for assignments similar to what infantry would get and therefore needs rifles since they would be outgunned if they were attacked by a group of terrorists wielding AK's, RPK's and so forth.
Hasn't this fact severely limited the potential use of PDW's?
 
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Yimmy    RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept?   10/18/2005 8:42:15 AM
I don't think so. PDW's are still being issued in fairly large numbers, and some soldiers, such as those in armour, simply don't have the space for an assault rifle.
 
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AlbanyRifles    RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept?   10/18/2005 10:54:32 AM
In the US Army, a lot more folks are carrying M4s than M9s....
 
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Schackleford    RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept?   10/18/2005 2:06:58 PM
"I don't think so. PDW's are still being issued in fairly large numbers, and some soldiers, such as those in armour, simply don't have the space for an assault rifle." Well yes, but prior to the war in Iraq the plan was that 7 out of 8 soldiers(those that aren't infantry) should all carry PDW's and no assault rifles. Well, those plan are all scratched now. The PDW's will never do the job of an assault rifle against an adversary armed with an assault rifle himself.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept?   10/18/2005 2:27:27 PM
>>Well yes, but prior to the war in Iraq the plan was that 7 out of 8 soldiers(those that aren't infantry) should all carry PDW's and no assault rifles. Well, those plan are all scratched now. The PDW's will never do the job of an assault rifle against an adversary armed with an assault rifle himself. << Was that the American plan? If so, I've not heard of it in any official sense. The plan was at one point that infantry and other combat types would eventually get the OICW, but even with that, the plan was for non-combat arms troops to get a 5.56mm rifle/carbine. I'm not familiar with the US military getting particularly enthusiastic about current generation PDWs at all -- all I've heard are that there are some very valid concerns about lethality of the P90 and MP7 in US military circles.
 
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Yimmy    RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept?   10/18/2005 3:40:55 PM
There is nor reason why you couldn't go with a 5.56mm PDW, such as the SA-80 carbine varient, or H&K53. Both weapons are of P90 size, rather than M4 size.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept?   10/18/2005 6:59:14 PM
Or, of course, just use something the size of an M4. If that's too much weapon for you to keep up with, especially with the stock collapsed, you're obviously in a very specialized sort of field, like an aircrew member or something. Even tank crews can manage M4s, though they might have to leave extra coffee out of the sponson boxes . . .
 
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Basilisk Station    RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept?   10/19/2005 1:00:02 PM
Quite frankly, I had been under the impression that OIF had given the concept a boost. My understanding of the choice though, was that it was a PDW vs having a pistol or carbine (Pistol caliber) and that the PDWs were considered far superior in the role.
 
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Schackleford    RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept?   10/22/2005 4:53:09 AM
"Quite frankly, I had been under the impression that OIF had given the concept a boost. My understanding of the choice though, was that it was a PDW vs having a pistol or carbine (Pistol caliber) and that the PDWs were considered far superior in the role." Why?
 
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dobrodan    RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept?   10/23/2005 2:40:55 PM
The main reason for the PDW was to have a compact weapon for "non-fighting" personnel. I still find the PDW to be an excellent idea, but there should be more focus on stopping-power, as micro-calibres, or even 5.56 does not have the stopping-power required for CQB. The idea of a high speed micro-round able to defeat body armor should be left, as body armor is not common, and does not have to be defeated to score a kill. A heavier, large calibre round should be the way to go, because it should cause massive trauma wherever on the body it hits, and is not easily deflected by windshields.
 
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YelliChink    RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept?   10/29/2005 1:37:42 PM
PDW is a kind of weapon that shouldn't exist today. If you want something fire pistol rounds automatically, get a submachinegun. A 10" or even 5" barrel AR-15 variant can do what P90 claimed capability. The first PDW is the exact concept of US Carbine Caliber .30 M1. M1 Carbine was first replace by M16 in USAF for USAF base guards. M16A2 is still light enough yet can provide sufficient fire power for supply and administrative personnels in rear area. Why bother buying another kind of firearms using another kind of bullets?
 
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dobrodan    Su-16-d   10/29/2005 8:31:39 PM
Actually, the Keltec Su-16-d would be a perfect REMF-gun. Light, cheap, compact, simple, and uses the same ammo and mags as the M16. It should also be possible to chamber in both 6.8 and 6.5 Grendel if needed. link
 
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Yimmy    RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept?   10/29/2005 9:12:39 PM
I would rather like to see the British army move towards H&K to supply our small arms. They make a complete family of top-notch weapons, and if we bought them (again), we would have a stable source of spares for the lot, at very reasonable prices due to bulk buying. Our Browning HP's must be getting exceptionately long in the tooth now, where H&K's new 4.6mm pistol could come in, our old FN MAG GPMG's could be replaced by the new H&K 7.62mm GPMG, and we could adopt their automatic grenade launcher as a new capability. To the point of the thread, we could do away completely with 5.56mm, by introducing the H&K MP7 PDW to 3rd line soldiers, it sharing the same 4.6mm armour piercing round as the H&K pistol, while infantry could use the new H&K 416, a AR15 varient with short stroke gas piston in 7.62mm, which could be supported by the new H&K GPMG in the light role with bipod and belt bag.
 
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dobrodan    RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept?   10/30/2005 8:54:21 AM
New HK 7.62mm GPMG? Where? The only new MG from HK so far is the 5.56mm MG-43... However, Im sure that HK will develop a 7.62 version really fast if there is demand for it...
 
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Yimmy    RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept?   10/30/2005 9:10:00 AM
There is a rumour they are already developing a 7.62mm version of the MG-43. Neither weapon has finished testing yet I don't believe. If it's wrong, we could simply adopt the Mk48 instead, the scaled up Minimi. link
 
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dobrodan    RE:Operation Iraqi Freedom: The end of the Personal Defence Weapon concept?   10/30/2005 9:40:25 AM
The 5.56 MG-43 is adopted by the German army as the MG-4 (I believe that is the official name)
 
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