MOUT warfare

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Clausewitz RE:MOUT warfare - Clausewitz - to shek 9/14/2005 9:16:06 AM

SMG are useful when it comes to room to room fighting at very close range. There is no time for aimed shooting. And not all infantrymen should get a SMG, most should have rifles/carbines. But snipers, machine gunners, AT 4 gunners and radio men may have a SMG.

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shek RE:MOUT warfare - Clausewitz - to shek 9/14/2005 9:38:40 AM

Clausewitz, I have to disagree with you. A trained reflex shooter aims his weapon everytime he shoots - through repetition and muscle memory, this action is accomplished through instinct. Spray and pray is a method, and a SMG helps that, but it certainly is not the preferred method. Controlled pairs into an enemy's lethal zone until he is not longer a threat is the way to go and preserves your ammunition for your future engagements. It also reduces the risk of fratricide as you have less ricochet potential due to fewer rounds being fired or "overpenetration" risks to soldiers that may be in adjacent rooms.

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AlbanyRifles RE:MOUT warfare - Clausewitz 9/14/2005 9:46:39 AM

In the US Army, those folks would carry an M4, a shortened version of the M16A2. But there are a few other things....we don't have dedicated AT4 gunners...it is a basic infantry skill. We do however have Javelin gunners. And one of the problems of a SMG is that it fires a pistol cartridge....less stopping power and penetration power as opposed to rifle bullet. Shek nailed the engineer question for current ops. When I was a company/team commander, I usually had 2 mech platoons, 1 tank platoon and one engineer platoon in my company team. The rest of the engineer company stayed at TF level. The reason for this task org was my unit always did the obstacle breech. And why did an infantry heavy team do that instead of an engineer company? Because I was trained in the use of direct fire (tanks and Bradleys) better than my engineer company commander counterpart, I had a dedicated fire support element who managed the suppression and screening of the breech force, and M1s and M2s are better protected than M113s. The engineers did the breech under my command, then I would hand off to the engineer company to expand. Worked pretty well. This SOP was used in GW for my old task force.

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Clausewitz RE:MOUT warfare - to AlbanyRifles and shek 9/14/2005 11:36:53 AM

Well, you may be right. But a very small SMG - modern name should be PDW for personal defence weapon - like the HK MP 7 A 1 (it's ammo will cut through body armor like butter)are a fine backup if the task of the soldier/marine differs from that of a rifleman. The MP 7 A 1 is very small and light. Just take a look at the HK-website. The mech. combined arms combat AlbanyRifles told us from differs from the classic dismounted infantry warfare. In my time in the german army - these days are long gone - we mixed mech. infantry with tanks, combat engineneers and arty./mortar observers too. On company and bataillion lever we had special oberservers to call in CAS too. If we had to secure a bridge or beachhead (?after rivercrossings)there were some tracked SAM (Roland) or AAA (Gepard) too.

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AlbanyRifles RE:MOUT warfare - Clausewitz 9/14/2005 2:04:22 PM

The configuration I bave was not for MOUT...my apologies for nto making that clear. It was for open terrain. BTW, I went through the Bundeswehr Infantrie Schule MOUT site at Bonnland in Hammlebuirg in 1982. What a tremendous training opportunity!!!!! I got to defend the town square with my platoon...held it all day. But I got waxed trying to take the Schloss!

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Clausewitz RE:MOUT warfare - to AlbanyRifles 9/15/2005 3:47:39 AM

I was in Hammelburg in 1978 and 1979. It was a real nice opportunity to train. But most modern cities are build differen today (skycrapers, big strets). So in Hammelburg there was - in my view - no real chance to use supporting armor. In modern cities it is different. But Hammelburg is like many old quarters/neighborhoods, with narrow alleys and no place to use armor (like many little third world towns). It is always fun to remember good old days.

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AlbanyRifles RE:MOUT warfare - Clausewitz 9/15/2005 10:07:59 AM

I agree with you on Hammelburg. I as lucky to also go to Doughboy City in Berlin....that was built like a modern city. I remember an epic fight my platoon had....in the sewers of the place!!! And we were able to use armor well, especially their on board smoke generators. Oh, the best part of Bonnland? The Hot chocalate and wurst in teh little upstairs kantine!

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Clausewitz RE:MOUT warfare - to AlbanyRifles 9/15/2005 12:29:00 PM

I 've never been in Doughboy City in Berlin. But if Doughboy City existists today I will take a look. Was it at you barraks near "Clayallee" ? BTW: Best on Hammelburg was the bear if I remember right!

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AlbanyRifles RE:MOUT warfare - to AlbanyRifles 9/16/2005 10:27:07 AM

Actually, Doughboy city was about4 km away up against the old Wall....took us about half an hour for our company to hile there. Yes, the beer was excellent......just couldn't have it during the trainng day!

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shek RE:MOUT warfare - to AlbanyRifles 9/16/2005 4:00:09 PM

AR, Did they still have the beer vending machines when you were stationed in Germany? Were they stocked with Bud, Schlitz, and the like or some good Hefewiezen?

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