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Subject: Adoption of 7.62x39 as secondary NATO round
12345    7/24/2005 11:58:34 PM
Historicly speaking adoption of better oppositions tools, systems is not a sin. That will make life of end user much easier I think
 
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Schackleford    RE:second stage in adoption of 7.62x39 as secondary NATO round   12/4/2003 7:39:18 AM
And as we all know now, the US armed forces all decided to stick with 5,56 mm M16s rather then looking into a new weapon or a new caliber, simply because there was no significant problem with either weapon or caliber. And notice that absolutely no one is considering the 7,62x39 mm bullet, which in addition to being heavier and bigger then needed, also is a poorly designed bullet clearly inferior to Western bullets. Who on earth would call the M249 a "light machine gun version of the M16"? Obviously not anyone who knows what the M249 is. The SCAR program is primarily the 5,56 mm SCAR-L with the 7,62x51 mm SCAR-H being a minor part of the program. The quality and reliability of your posts is steadily deterioating, 12345. And this repetitive cut-and-paste of posts is laughable.
 
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Yimmy    RE:Hague convention and other peculiarities   10/1/2005 5:14:28 PM
The Russian round is not a hollow point, and it does not behave like a hollow point. A hollow point, as in, a FMJ bullet with the jacket removed from the nose, and a hollow in the lead, is designed to expand upon impact. While the Russian round is a true FMJ, only with a designed air pocket inside, which changes the centre of gravity, and so encourages a change of direction and yawing on impact.
 
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Aquadoc    RE:Hague convention and other peculiarities   10/2/2005 4:03:44 AM
True it is not a true HP. by definition. I think it is silly anyway You can shoot someone bt try not to do supiferlous harm LOL OMG!!!! ANYWAY you all aree correct except 12345 thinking it is a better round. course that is an opinion.
 
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12345    7.62x39 mm   10/2/2005 1:13:49 PM
In the 1960s the Yugoslavians experimented with new bullet designs to produce a round with a superior wounding profile to the M43. The Yugoslavian type rounds are known as M67 and incorporate an air gap inside the front of the bullet. This shifts the center of gravity rearward, causing the bullet to destablize nearly 17 cm earlier in tissue. This causes a pair of large stretch cavities at a depth likely to cause effective wound trauma. When the temporary stretch cavity intersects with the skin at the exit area, a larger exit wound will result, which takes longer to heal. Additionally, when the stretch cavity intersects a stiff organ like the liver or a full bladder, it will cause damage to that organ. However, without fragmentation, the wounding potential of M67 is mostly limited to the small permanent wound channel the bullet itself makes. While a fragmenting round (like the 5.56 x 45mm) might cause massive tissue trauma and blood loss (and thus rapid incapacitation) on a lung or abdominal hit (both of which are very resistant to hydrostatic shock), the M67 has a greater chance of merely wounding the target. Still, it is an enormous improvement over the M43 design. Nearly all modern 7.62x39 mm rounds of civilian or military manufacture are of the M67 variety—a simple boattail FMJ round with a forward air cavity. Notable exceptions are the Ulyanovsk Machine Factory EM1 "match" (which substitutes a nipple for an air cavity and produces a single large temporary cavity in place of two small ones) and the Wolf 150 grain (9.7 g) soft point which behaves much more like a traditional expanding hunting round. Nearly all Jacketed Hollow Point rounds in 7.62 x 39 mm are M67 rounds with a small hole in the front of the jacket—terminal ballistics are nearly identical to their fully jacketed bretheren. They are a concession to various hunting laws that forbid FMJ rounds. Of all the tested JHP rounds, only Ulyanovsk EM3 hollowpoints seem to expand at all. [edit] Chinese steel core Chinese military-issue ammunition in this caliber is M67 style with a mild steel core and a thin jacket of copper or brass. Contrary to common belief, the use of steel was a cost saving measure rather than one to increase the penetration. Additionally, mild steel is not sufficiently hard to grant unusual armor penetrating capability . Despite this, Chinese ammunition is currently banned from importation in the US due to the fact that there are 7.62x39 mm caliber "handguns" (mostly Krinkov pistols and a few single shot target pistols) and the ammunition is an "armor piercing handgun round" under the U.S. federal legal definition of the word, which is based on materials and bullet design rather than on tested ability to penetrate armor. [edit] Other names for 7.62x39 mm Also known as a .30 caliber cartridge (pronounced "thirty"). On rare occasions, this ammunition is referred to as 7.62 mm Soviet, 7.62 mm Warsaw Pact rounds, or 7.62 mm ComBloc. It was also known in the United States as .30 Short Russian; the "Short" was to distinguish it from the older .30 Russian, which was the 7.62 x 54R. Since approximately 1990 the 7.62 x 39 mm cartridge has become very popular in the southeastern US for hunting game up to the size of whitetail deer, as it is approximately as powerful as the old .30-30 Winchester round. Large numbers of inexpensive imported rifles, like the SKS and semi-auto AK-47 types, are available in this caliber. Inexpensive imported 7.62 x 39 mm ammunition is also widely available, though much of it is of the non-expanding type that is illegal to use for hunting. FYI, Thanks, 12345, wikipedia.org
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:7.62x39mm is back by popular demands   10/3/2005 9:18:10 AM
>>Also: from an M16A2 (with a 20 inch barrel) the 5.56x45mm rounds are fired at high enough velocity that when it hits soft tissue the bullet splits apart and the lead splinters in every direction leaving not temporary but permanent wound cavities. The problem is that the M4 and it's other 14.5" barreled cousins don't fire the 5.56x45mm at a high enough muzzle velocity for that to take place. That's why two rounds will generally drop a human from am M16A2 for 3 to even 4 are needed from the M4. It's not really the rifling twist that has an adverse affect. It's the muzzle velocity change caused by the extra 5.5 inches of barrel that the M16A2 has over the M4.<< False. The M16A2's 20" leads to fragmentation at longer ranges than the M4's shorter barrel, but the M4's barrel will still cause SS109 rounds to fragment inside 100-150 meters. And the argument becomes entirely moot when firing Mk 262 Mod 0 ammunition, which fragments in tissue at much lower velocities. As for your claim of a lethality differential between M16A2s and M4s, I simply refer you back to PEO Soldier Systems: M4s, firing controlled pairs to center of mass in accordance with CQB/CQC training consistently dispatched targets during Operation Iraqi Freedom. >>It is also a heavier cartridge than the 5.56mm. Although you'd pack less ammo, you'd need less ammo. When one round generally kills (air bubble in tip and steel jacket), compared to the 4 rounds previously required to drop someone, you really need 1/2 the amount of ammo. (That's being conservative, I could have said 1/4.)<< Dubious logic at best, as there are a great many more people walking around in the world who have survived 7.62x39mm rounds than there are who have survived 5.56mm rounds. A heavier round *may* translate into fewer rounds needed to stop an opponent, but you're out of your mind if you think anyone in a CQB situation is going to rely on that fact and skimp on the controlled pairs and failure drills (and 7.62x39mm is not a particularly reknowned killer at the best of times . . .). Add to that the fact that 7.62x39mm does not suppress the enemy any better than 5.56mm when you're laying down covering fire, etc. So ammunition expenditure will remain exactly what it is. >>You could use 5.56mm (which is actually usable in an accurized rifle to 800 meters; an example is the Filipino Marines MSSR) in the standard M16A2 rifles as the main battle rifle, and 7.62x39mm in the 16" barrel carbines. That way you've got optimal firepower long and close range. Completely do away with the MP5-N for CQC and just use the new M4 7.62x39. And modify the M16A2 with the same modification I suggested for the 7.62x39mm carbine.<< Ah yes, another brilliant bit of logistical thinking -- why not have two seperate calibers for general service long arms in the inventory? It's not a particularly good idea at all, and more to the point, if we're going to do so, why don't we adopt a round that is an improvement over 5.56mm, instead of a mediocre, at best, sixty year old .30 caliber job?
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:7.62x39 as NATO round    10/3/2005 9:58:58 AM
>>The principal provision relating to the legality of weapons is contained in Art. 23e of the Annex to Hague Convention IV Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land of 18 October 1907, which prohibits the employment of "arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury." In some law of war treatises, the term "unnecessary suffering" is used rather than "superfluous injury." The terms are regarded as synonymous. To emphasize this, Art. 35, para. 2 of the 1977 Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions of August 12, 1949, states in part that "It is prohibited to employ weapons [and] projectiles . . . of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering." << Which is really a vague and dubious standard. Strictly interpreting such would mean that spitzer bullets are, themselves, illegal, as they will inflict more suffering and damage than the round-nosed, straight sided bullets most of the world was still using in 1907, since spitzers will tumble whereas round-nosed rounds tend not to. Likewise, M193 and M855 5.56mm should be considered illegal, as the tendency of either to fragment, again, causes increased suffering and damage. Not significantly different than putting air cavities in the front of your bullet or spoon-tips or whatever else. What the Hague et al rulings are realistically taken to mean is that you can't shoot lawful combatants with hollow point or open tip ammunition (exceptions allowed by many nations for dealing with savages who engage in terrorism etc). And even that is a bit loose in interpretation, if you argue that the round is intended to ensure lethality (as in, say, a sniper weapon) rather than cause increased injury, etc. As long as its got a full metal jacket, you're in business, legally speaking.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:7.62x39 and the Hague Conventions - Aquadoc   10/3/2005 10:24:18 AM
>>The .50 is against the ROE BUT if one is shooting at equipment not a person it is OK. and Hollow points are mentioned specifically I believe again I will look it up but I am pretty sure. << Urban myth. I was told the same thing in basic training, but in reality there is no legal restriction against using .50 cal on people, and should be no ROE restriction unless one's chain of command is out of their mind or ignorant of the law.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Hague convention and other peculiarities   10/3/2005 10:39:36 AM
>>I'm not sure that the .50 cal does contravene the Hague convention at all. It can be used against human targets because: a) It is more effective if they are behind cover. b) It has longer range.<< It does not contravene any international agreements when used against personnel targets. The belief that it does is an urban myth within the US military which probably illustrates the respect and admiration for the power of the .50 BMG round common in the US military. But, .50 cal is not intended to cause increased suffering, etc., and is perfectly legal to use against personnel, even when firing Mk 211 ammunition containing HE and Incendiary filler. If there were something wrong with using .50 cal against personnel, I would then have to ask why it is legal for Bradley crews to engage personnel with 25mm ammunition or with a Mark-19, etc.
 
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12345    7.62 x 39 mm again   10/3/2005 10:55:51 PM
The standard AK-47 or AKM fires a 7.62 × 39 mm round with a muzzle velocity of 710 m/s. Muzzle energy is 1,990 joules. Cartridge case length is 38.6 mm, weight is 18.21 g. Projectile weight is normally 8g, though some Russian ammunition made for export to the US uses a soft-nose hunting type bullet of 10g mass. The Soviet/Russian made bullets are usually boat-tail bullets (which is to say that they're tapered slightly at the rear, like a rowboat, in order to reduce turbulent vacuum drag) with a copper-plated steel jacket, a large steel core, and some lead between the core and the jacket. However, many foreign manufacturers (notably the Yugoslavs in the 1960s and 1970s) prefer a copper jacketed and lead cored design, which makes the bullet short and rear heavy, both of which contribute to the tumbling effect. Chinese military-issue ammunition in this caliber has a solid steel core with a thin jacket of copper or brass. The AK-47 and AKM, with the 7.62 x 39 mm cartridge, had an effective range of around 350 meters and usually had the sights zeroed at 200 meters. The newer AK-74, with the 5.45 mm cartridge, has an effective range of around 500 meters and normally has the sights zeroed at 300 meters. The new model AK-74 fires a 5.45 × 39 mm round with a muzzle velocity of 900 m/s. Muzzle energy is 1,385 joules. The cartridge weight is 10.75 g. Projectile weight is 3.42 g. The new cartridge was designed to give greater effective range (because of the high velocity) and greater controllability in full-auto fire (due to the reduced power). The Russian military-issue 5N7 specification 5.45 mm bullets are a somewhat complex full metal jacket design. The bullet's core consists mainly of a length of soft steel rod, cut to length during the manufacturing process to give the correct weight. There is a hollow air space underneath the bullet's thin copper jacket ahead of the steel rod core. The base of the bullet is tapered, to reduce vacuum drag (a so-called boat-tail bullet) and there is a small lead plug crimped in place in the base of the bullet, ostensibly so that the thin copper alloy jacket material can be stamped in place in the proper tapered shape. The lead plug, however, in combination with that air bubble in the point of the bullet, has the effect of pushing the bullet's center of gravity very far to the rear, and the hollow air space under the point of the bullet makes the bullet's point prone to bending to one side when the bullet strikes anything solid, unbalancing it. Most authorities in the West believe this bullet is designed specifically to tumble in flesh, tremendously increasing the severity of the wound. When shot into 10% ballistic gelatin at 4°C (the standard simulant for human flesh, in the field of ballistics), the bullets always begin to tumble, sometimes less than 2" (5 cm) from the point of entry, and usually tumble end over end two or three times before coming to rest at a depth of 12" to 16" of penetration (30cm to 40cm); it may also move in a curved or even zig-zag path through the gelatin block as it tumbles. In combat in Afghanistan in the 1980s, and since that time, the 5N7 bullet has earned a fearsome reputation for creating horrific wounds. With the 5.45 mm bullet, the tumbling produced a maximum wound expansion twice, at 100 and 400 mm of depth. With the 7.62 mm bullet, the maximum wound expansion occurred twice, at about 300 and 400 mm. 400 mm is the average width of a human trunk. Some people have said that the Russians were concerned about the lower energies of the bullets and designed them to cause more damage than might otherwise occur. The rate of fire is between 300 and 600 rounds per minute. Later models have modifications to the trigger assembly and bolt to fire more slowly. This helps make the weapon more controllable and waste less ammunition. This can help reduce logistic requirements. The rate-reducing devices may also be intended to reduce the wear and tear on moving parts. iridis.com
 
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Schackleford    RE:7.62 x 39 mm again   10/4/2005 11:31:40 AM
That all sounds real nice. But: Russian Spetznaz in Chechnya have pretty much given up on the 5.45 mm round, preferring the achaic AKM instead. And I am sure that they would just LOVE to arm themselves with a M8 or a G36.
 
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