"OTOH, I think combat stress combined with a lack of experience will result in what we've seen so far. You tend to forget things under stress, and the bunching is a natural instinct under fire. Without experience, you don't realize what you're doing is wrong." I appreciate the affects of stress on performance, as my civilian job involves performing tasks in a stressful environment that can result in death or injury if mistakes are made. In a situation like that checks and balances are adopted and in the case of military action leadership by the NCO's, is what constututes this. I would note that if your average US grunt has not seen combat before, the there should be plenty of NCO's that have, due to the increased military activity of the last decade or so. The fact that despite this I have not seen one NCO enforcing the appropriate discipline during a contact, indicates to me that the problem is deeper than just one of a lack of experience.

"The fact that despite this I have not seen one NCO enforcing the appropriate discipline during a contact" Well, in the middle of contact is not the time to be doing corrective training. At that point, your NCO's should be running their teams and squads. Yes, you can remind people what they should be doing.. covering their sectors, watching your intervals, etc. But if PVT Jones isn't using by the book firing techniques and a quick shout doesn't fix it, the time to correct that is after contact. There is a difference between what NCO's can and will correct during training and what can reasonably be done in the midst of being shot at.

A good source of footage is; http://www.dvidshub.net/ Most is provided by US Military Public affairs Detachments in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"But if PVT Jones isn't using by the book firing techniques and a quick shout doesn't fix it, the time to correct that is after contact." When I said "appropriate discipline" I wasn't talking about bailing PTV Jones up on the Sh*t line and giving him a bollocking! LOL!!! I was talking about the "quick shout" that you mention, mainly to spread out and take cover. It was noticeably lacking, even for movements that weren't under fire.

Aussie gunner I've read the thread. I've noticed, that the more you boast of proficiency, the less there is to boast about. Well, one thing is that the US soldiers haven't kept their high opinion of themsleves to themselves. Aussiegunners comments reflects something Shake wrote quite some time ago about a bradley not being a tank, plus the experience of Danish Home Guard (which are NOT regarded as elite): An uncertainty about infantry basics, a harsh treatment of officers that foul up. To me this comes down to faults with the NCO's - and I've been in one of the poorest infantry units in history - you guessed it: The NCO's were 50 day (needed some sick-leave on top of their vacation) wonders that had learned to polish boots - and not very much else. I and before that my NCO's kept telling us: Don't bunch up, don't shoot your own lot, don't shoot at target you don't know is there, and and and. We get back to an issue, I've tried to raise before: The basic training of the light infantry. That is where the flaws in military training really shows itself: A gunner can get along if he can operate the gun and a tanker if he can drive. But a light infantry man has very little but his abasic skills in taking cover use fire and movement and shoot straight. I'm not yearning to return to the bad old days, but I am saying: If you cut down on training the squad/fireteam, they are going to die.

Okay, let me try this again....... How many of us have gone through infantry urban combat training in the last 5 years? The doctrine has changed....you mass fires so you have to crowd people together to get their weapons to bear. As has been said, the protective gear is better. In OIF, there were numerous instances where US troops (Soldiers & Marines) would expose themselves on purpose to draw fire because they trusted their gear. As I said, the rules have changed....2 or 3 years ago, we would never have dreamed of using armor and air support in urban areas the way we do now. So I say again, I would be careful of drawing conclusions from (okay) a series of 30 to 45 second camera shots of GIs in action. I have seen extensive coverage and frankly I see nothing out of sorts. As I said, we are not there to evaluate the METT-T the commanders are going through.

I feel very strongly that there appears to be a systemic problem in the command and control of US Marines operating in Iraq. What appears to be a wanton execution of an unarmed injured Iraqi was recorded by NBC. While admitting that I wasn't there and that I am not in possession of all the facts, the Marines in the video had all the appearance of a high school sports team. There did not appear to be anyone in control, they wandered into the room as if there was nothing to worry about and then ended up executing a wounded man. Where is the professionalism? I would expect a lot more from professional soldiers! By all appearances the behavior of that group of marines was unacceptable and this can only come down to a lack of appropriate training and then command control. Unless this sort of behaviour is condoned by those in control and I cannot believe that it is. Regards, Massive

If you think they acted like kids, you should listen to some of the radio chit-chat communicated betwean aircraft and their superiors, found on those vids on the net of F18 cameras etc.

It is not so much my concern that they acted like kids. It is that their behaviour resulted in someone being executed.

While I am not condoning their behavior, how does the behavior of 1 Marine platoon equate to "a systemic problem in the command and control of US Marines operating in Iraq"? I believe that is a bit of hyperbole. Let's let the investigations run the course. I believe the US military has shown that it is at least willing to conduct and investigation nad hold people accountable.