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Subject: US Marines and British Infantry
BRoger    11/5/2004 5:25:59 AM
How does quality of a US Marine compare with that of the standard British Infantry soldier? I ask because I find it interesting that the Black Watch Regiment in Iraq (British infantry) are replacing US Marines in their role near Baghdad.
 
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GOP       2/15/2007 10:27:37 PM

When they do force on force there are large execises like Battle Griffin in Norway, but there are also smaller ones that take place among visiting unit at various bases.

 

They give scenarios.  In Battle Griffin its like full war.  Don't get caught up on this "is this unit doing that" or what ever.  In BG there are like 8 countries.  There are 2 opposing forces of combined units given differnt objectives.  Whatever objectives the Marines are given they achieve.

 

Its very complex to explain.  If you ask specific Q's its easier to answer.


Some questions if you don't mind answering them:
 
Does the USMC bring more units to Battle Griffin than the other forces, particularly the RM?
 
 Is airpower allowed (this could be a huge force multiplier in the US' favor)
 
Who else is typically involved?
 
You said that the RM usually have an edge in physical fitness, what areas would you say they had the biggest advantage? What does their pt consist of compared to the USMC's, etc.
 
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BadNews       2/15/2007 10:29:06 PM






"there’s nobody in the world who can Match us."



You forgot the FFL Buddy Marine ;)

The Legion routinely beats everybody in join excercises , including the
Marines . You say you 're Jungle Warfare Specialists but you never
liked French Guyana , do you ;)



Cheers .






And if your talking about the Jungle Crs in FG, the Marine unit took a long time getting thru the crs.  It was a Marine reserve unit doing there ANNUAL 2wks a year training.  They get off their couches 2wks a yr to get together and train like that. 



So no its not a shock, they weren't in shape, and its a crs FFL units do 2 or 3 times a yr.  I'm glad they had the balls to try it.  Alot of other units would have P*ssied out all together.




Dang dude, you really know your sh1t. I've really started to like your posts as of late, very informative.



Yes he does, I just wish he would tone down the name calling
 
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Yimmy       2/16/2007 1:23:22 AM




I gotta go now I'll be back on tommorrow afternoon





I wouldn't worry yourself.

 



Just to be clear, I don't mean any offence, but your recent posts have just been the usual nationalistic bs.
 
 
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SCCOMarine       2/16/2007 1:44:53 PM
First some background on Battle Griffin, BG, from what I can remember.
 
 It used to be I think an annual or maybe bi-annual event until 2002 when there was a rev up for OIF.  That was the yr I was supposed to go w/ 2nd Marines.  Instead I was sent to Small Craft  just B4 it started and got sent out on an Anti-Terrorism Sec. Det w/them. But I trained up for it & it was all NCOs talked about.  Trying to pump us up for some Force on Force.

We had 1RMC Major and 2 or 3 Color Sgts throughout 2nd Marines, I would see them a lot during CAX, Combined Arms Exer., a 3mth Ex in the Mojave Des, it was a US lead up to BG.  We had a Drinking tent & the SNCO/Offs would joke w/ the Brits about past BGs. Just listening in is the type of sh*t you join for.  It was all they talked about, besides Libo w/the Norwegian Girls. 

Anyway BG is about 8 countries. The premise is to pretend this powerful country east of the Baltic “Russia” went on the Offense.  How could you tie them up in the Baltic Straights.  They used the Corps’ concept of Maneuver Warfare.  Lightning quick Company &BN sized raids on and from the many islands in the Baltic.

But Battle Griffin was basically, Blue team raids various islands and harasses Red team.  Red team tries to take them back.

 
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SCCOMarine       2/16/2007 2:03:52 PM




When they do force on force there are large execises like Battle Griffin in Norway, but there are also smaller ones that take place among visiting unit at various bases.



 



They give scenarios.  In Battle Griffin its like full war.  Don't get caught up on this "is this unit doing that" or what ever.  In BG there are like 8 countries.  There are 2 opposing forces of combined units given differnt objectives.  Whatever objectives the Marines are given they achieve.



 



Its very complex to explain.  If you ask specific Q's its easier to answer.




Some questions if you don't mind answering them:
 

Does the USMC bring more units to Battle Griffin than the other forces, particularly the RM?

 

 Is airpower allowed (this could be a huge force multiplier in the US' favor)

 

Who else is typically involved?

 

You said that the RM usually have an edge in physical fitness, what areas would you say they had the biggest advantage? What does their pt consist of compared to the USMC's, etc.


Does the USMC bring more units to Battle Griffin than the other forces, particularly the RM?


   Yes, this is the layout.  We send a MEB, Marine Expeditionary Brigade MAGTF: I believe for the Exerc it was 1 BN, Regimental HQ, some Helo support, either a Plt or Co from LAR.  It was a couple thousand Marines maybe btw 5 or 6,000.  It’s a big exercise I believe it was more than 20,000 total NATO troops at the 1 before.

These countries mostly send their Marines or whatever quick strike forces they use.  The UK sends I believe 2 or 3 Commandos, around 1,000 Marines, I’m not really sure.  These forces combine to make Red/Blue cells.  They go back and forth on Off/Def objectives.  Every unit plays to their strength. 

They never let the UK & US Marines on the same side.  I believe they said it was ’99 and they proposed the US/UK vs Everyone else and it was denied.  It would have been 7,000vs13,000, still no contest.

But b/c the USMC is the lead force, or Blue Team, the RMC always ends up as part of the OPFOR, Red Team.  And if it weren’t for them it would be any challenge.  Both sides are pretty evenly equip’d & #’d.

F on F is like X-Plt or Co is guarding Y-point, A-unit gathers intel B-unit strikes, they either defend and repel or get overran. 
 
Its not like the RMCs 2 or 3 Co's versus our MEB.  The various Countries units are combined and broken down.  There are various assaults of various size w/no warning like war.
 
During BG the US Marines have never been overran, and always seize their obj's.  The RMC has overran everyone but us.  Its a point of competion and its all they talked about during CAX.
 
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SCCOMarine       2/16/2007 2:07:28 PM
 Is airpower allowed (this could be a huge force multiplier in the US' favor)?
 
   Airpower in the form of Helo's is used but everyone has it, these units come equip'd as they would on deployment.
 
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SCCOMarine       2/16/2007 2:10:18 PM
Who else is typically involved?
 
   I had to look it up but I had guess right earlier 8 countries: the United States, United Kingdom, Netherlands, Norway, Germany, France, Denmark, and Spain.
 
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GOP       2/16/2007 2:31:51 PM
Awesome, that sounds like a blast. I have always heard about how bad the USMC does at these exercises, but the poster who says that never gives any facts whatsoever, you sort proved all that to be completely false.
 
I gotta say it guys (to the guys who are "rah rah British Infantry, USMC sucks"), you just got Owned by SCCO. Better luck next time.
 
Yimmy, I don't think this is nationalistic bs, he did provide a whole lot of facts. I'm not saying that the USMC is better than the RM, because they still have different mission tasks, but anyone who knocks the USMC (or any other force) needs to back it up with facts.
 
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SCCOMarine       2/16/2007 3:08:21 PM
 "You said that the RM usually have an edge in physical fitness, what areas would you say they had the biggest advantage? What does their pt consist of compared to the USMC's, etc."

Our most physically fit guys are as fit as any of theirs. But unit to unit to a man their avg Marine is in much better shape.

When I was in SCCO we had a RMC Plt visit the Camp LeJeune for training w/various units on base. The RMC Color Sgt attached to us asked them if they wanted to stay and workout w/us.

We would do morning PT together. The pace of the runs they do is killer.  We would go on 8 and 10 mi runs. The distance wasn’t a problem, but the pace dropped about 1/3 of the Marines.  That came mostly b/c we weren’t used to that kind of pace.  I’m a rabbit and I had bust my *ss to keep up.  Grass Drills too, they would go to crazy repetitions.

But the way we crush Jr Marines w/pressure to be perfect or "Mentally Hard" in everything, they find insane.  They are much more forgiving of mistakes by their Jr Mar's.  The fact that we have extreme, almost torturous punishments to get Jr Mar’s tactically proficient or learn the value of “awareness” and “attention to detail”.  They find that equally as intense to them as their PT regiment is to us. 
We can both take it, but it’s a different training philosophy.

 So it’s a trade off. We are equally as good and interchangeable.  We've proved that many times in personnel exchanges, exercises, and war.

 
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GOP       2/16/2007 3:27:20 PM

 "You said that the RM usually have an edge in physical fitness, what areas would you say they had the biggest advantage? What does their pt consist of compared to the USMC's, etc."

Our most physically fit guys are as fit as any of theirs. But unit to unit to a man their avg Marine is in much better shape.


When I was in SCCO we had a RMC Plt visit the Camp LeJeune for training w/various units on base. The RMC Color Sgt attached to us asked them if they wanted to stay and workout w/us.


We would do morning PT together. The pace of the runs they do is killer.  We would go on 8 and 10 mi runs. The distance wasn’t a problem, but the pace dropped about 1/3 of the Marines.  That came mostly b/c we weren’t used to that kind of pace.  I’m a rabbit and I had bust my *ss to keep up.  Grass Drills too, they would go to crazy repetitions.


But the way we crush Jr Marines w/pressure to be perfect or "Mentally Hard" in everything, they find insane.  They are much more forgiving of mistakes by their Jr Mar's.  The fact that we have extreme, almost torturous punishments to get Jr Mar’s tactically proficient or learn the value of “awareness” and “attention to detail”.  They find that equally as intense to them as their PT regiment is to us. 

We can both take it, but it’s a different training philosophy.

 So it’s a trade off. We are equally as good and interchangeable.  We've proved that many times in personnel exchanges, exercises, and war.



8-10 miler at fast pace? Holy sh*t, that's one long run. I struggle to run 3 miles, but I've never been much of a runner (working on it hard though). I love physical fitness type stuff, so I gotta ask...who's in charge of PT in each unit? Is there a set guideline (like a manual where you have to follow a set plan)? I'm curious because I know a good bit of guys who go USMC to Navy, then BUD/S via inter-service transfer...so this could be a change of plans for me. I could build the toughness by going USMC obviously as a Jr. Marine, build the fitness by going USMC, build experience by going USMC (go to as many schools I can and most units get deployed to a combat zone now anyway), etc etc...then transfer and go to BUD/S. Not sure how hard it is to get a unit transfer, but it's worth looking into.
 
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