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Subject: US Marines and British Infantry
BRoger    11/5/2004 5:25:59 AM
How does quality of a US Marine compare with that of the standard British Infantry soldier? I ask because I find it interesting that the Black Watch Regiment in Iraq (British infantry) are replacing US Marines in their role near Baghdad.
 
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BadNews       2/18/2007 9:38:56 PM

badnews dien bien phu was only about 115 or 120 miles straightline from hanoi and probably no more than 100 miles from the limits of french controlled territory at the time.
i'd also note there were a whole lot more than 5000 persians in that army even if it never got close to the million the greeks claimed.


Alas, Idrew numbers from memory and should have resourced for exact figures, that said, was not my point, the point was that military units ares the extentions of a nations politics, NOT the driving force of some, and often in that position all lilitarys are thrown in untenable situations, and even facing defeat in the broader sense, the grunt almost always performs bravely and with valor regardless of branch or nationality.  Thus comaprisons like these serve little use other than chest beating
 
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BadNews       2/18/2007 9:56:10 PM

The Us Lost on tghe Home front Pure And Simple, piss poor decisions by Elected officials from the get go,
 

We depended on the Home Front in error. It's the same today with the war on terror.

 

A terrorist is a military man or like man pausing as an equal with civilians in making deals. Eg. when an Arafat is there pretending to be a reformed civilian, it's ludicrous, the man is a military man with no excuse for losing the mission he has: destroying the enemy. Civilians on the other hand are taught to compromise, to make deals, to even be allowed making excuses.

 

Having the like of Maos or Arafat make deals with our civilians politicos who use systems and other agencies and excuses to get things done is simply not a fair political fight.

 

I say the US Army lost because the US Army failed to take somehow control of the situation and to inform, and we still are failing nowadays in understanding how terrorism works: it is backed by foreign military structures and use demoralizing tactics while blending in a hostaged civilian population which cannot be possibly be responsible, let alone blamed, for losing wars they are not trained to fight.

 

In any case, I digress. The point I really wanted to make is that a US Army soldier relies on the heart for motivation and bravery, the Jar Head relies on blunt tool like resilience. If troop morale goes down the Marine unit should not be affected in combat, but the US army unit might be affected, and this is what the Japanese general meant.

 

If I were a General, I'd want the Marine Corp, but as a grunt, I'd rather fight with a US Army guy because I am confident that I can help my combat morale, pushing myself, and inspiring my buddies to follow on, maintaining morale as the enemy challenges me in demoralizing hostage taking and suicide bombing tactics.

 

British Army NCOs complain even that US Army units are made of primitive soldiers, but let us face it, the jar head factor is invaluable when confronting a demoralization based enemy like the terrorist. Sure, I agree, we need units which are based on fighting morale so as to win also the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people, but the Marine stop gap safety is needed to gain time when newly challenged by nasty tactics. Each branch has its key disciplines and attributes to contribute, and it is not a competition between who is better or which attribute is better, but a combined armed principle that even predates Napoleon. The Knights of the Round Table competed in how each could add on, and not against each other in pointless skirmishes and duels of strengths and wits, Pokemon style. The weakest of them all in fact brought all the morale support the others lacked when they got divided, in his successful quest for the Graal itself, which others had failed at.



Excuse Me, Resilience is the very definition of heart and bravery, what are you talking about, US Army Grunts and Marine Grunts train with the same disiplines and leadershio principles, For you to say that a US soldier or Marine is in anyway different with regard to heart, morale building, and such is pure ignorance. The ONLy diference between a Marine Grunt and army grunt with regard to infantry is basic mission. In dessert storm, Soldiers and Marines fought side by side, in Iraq, Soldiers and Marines fight at times side by side. The same combat morale, the same basic weapons, and for the most part very similar tactics.
There is no difference in drive or combat morale, the US soldier is every bit as resilient as the US Marine, and the Marine grunt is trained to press on every bit as nuch as an army grunt. The tools for each are the, the mission in initial deployment is what varies, once the boots are on the ground they are both US combatants and unquestionable a force that you don't want mess with
 
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GOP       2/18/2007 10:05:09 PM
BW, I agree with you for the most part, but that statement about the USMC lacking guts still makes no sense to me. I mean, look at what the USMC did at places like Guadal Canal, Iwo Jima, Fallujah, etc etc
 
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Bluewings12       2/18/2007 11:25:21 PM
GOP , The Marines don ' t lack guts ! I never said so .
I said that the Legion has more . It 's different .

Cheers .

 
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BadNews       2/18/2007 11:33:09 PM
Bluewings, just one note, the USMC has it's own tanks, it's own fixed wing and verticle aircraft and it's own artillry, that is what makes us unique, Our 'Battle Group' as you put it is self contained.. And if the FFL had the same mix, the result would be of near nuclear proportions. Fact is, I see not the day that we would be anything but allies. If a MEB(which would be of roughly the same size as the legion) and the FFL Supported by air and armor in the same matter ever went head to head.... The victor would not matter as few would be left standing on either side. (Even if you guys brought the Rafale along --- Just Kidding)
 
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GOP       2/19/2007 1:33:53 AM

GOP , The Marines don ' t lack guts ! I never said so .

I said that the Legion has more . It 's different .



Cheers .



What's this then: >>>The problem they have is the lack of "guts" .<<<
 
Looks like it to me. How can you gauge who has more guts? My gutometer seems to be broken


 
 
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Yimmy       2/19/2007 2:04:30 AM













I gotta go now I'll be back on tommorrow afternoon











I wouldn't worry yourself.





 








Just to be clear, I don't mean any offence, but your recent posts have just been the usual nationalistic bs.



 



 

Its not nationalistic at all.  But your trying to compare the British Army against the US Marine.  A unit w/ an unparalleled combat history and capabilities well beyond the British Army.

I think you are confusing me with someone else.  I have never tried to compare the American marines with the British army (at least no that I remember, apart from simple organisational characteristics).
 
What a am bringing into dispute, is your claim of the American marines always winning in this exercise you mentioned.  I can not for the life of me imagine one unit always winning at anything, unless the exercise is tailored that way.
 
British marine commandos are very good, and the Dutch marines are equally good.  I also expect the Norwegian, German and French to be of similar standard.... and yet we are supposed to believe that the American marines always win?
 
To me that sounds like a nationalistic boast, not fact.
 
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GOP       2/19/2007 3:42:39 AM



















I gotta go now I'll be back on tommorrow afternoon














I wouldn't worry yourself.







 











Just to be clear, I don't mean any offence, but your recent posts have just been the usual nationalistic bs.





 






 



Its not nationalistic at all.  But your trying to compare the British Army against the US Marine.  A unit w/ an unparalleled combat history and capabilities well beyond the British Army.



I think you are confusing me with someone else.  I have never tried to compare the American marines with the British army (at least no that I remember, apart from simple organisational characteristics).

 

What a am bringing into dispute, is your claim of the American marines always winning in this exercise you mentioned.  I can not for the life of me imagine one unit always winning at anything, unless the exercise is tailored that way.

 

British marine commandos are very good, and the Dutch marines are equally good.  I also expect the Norwegian, German and French to be of similar standard.... and yet we are supposed to believe that the American marines always win?

 

To me that sounds like a nationalistic boast, not fact.


I'm not really disagreeing with you bro, but two things:
1) SCCO is a very well respected member of this site just like you are Yimmy, and everything he has posted in the Commando's board has been spot on (even though we disagree on a few articles, etc).
 
2) SCCO did say that the USMC brings a full MEU to the battlefield, whereas the other Marine units from other countries bring far less men, so them accomplishing their tasks while heavily outnumbering their opponents is not that hard to fathom, to me anyway.
 
The RM (that's right guys, it's not "RMC" it's RM, lol) and Royal Marine Commando's are extremely good, and the Dutch Marines are extremely good as well (honestly don't know much about the other nation's forces, but I am sure they are top notch aswell). 
 
By the way Yimmy, how are you liking the infantry (I believe you are still in, right?) and how's college coming? I start junior college next year (I'll be a HS senior), but I'm going to get a few credits out of the way in the junior college.
 
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Yimmy       2/19/2007 3:57:52 AM
By the way Yimmy, how are you liking the infantry (I believe you are still in, right?) and how's college coming? I start junior college next year (I'll be a HS senior), but I'm going to get a few credits out of the way in the junior college.

Gop, it is very rare that exercises are "unfair".  I doubt that the American marines will vastly out-number the opposition, especially when they are defending.  I don't mean to be argumentative, but claims like "we have never lost", just don't tend to be true in reality.
Er, and Gop, I certainly don't pretend to be well respected on the forum!  Respect is something that is earned, and it is hard to fathom how it can be earned through opinionated chit-chat alone - and I speak my mind and am argumentative far too often at best!!
 
In answer to the quote, the first year of university is so easy its almost a waste of time, and the infantry is all fun.  It will be even more fun when my transfer finally goes through and they actually start paying me!  I came second in a small shooting competition yesterday, just out of 16 of us or so, all fun and games.


 
 
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GOP       2/19/2007 2:02:24 PM


By the way Yimmy, how are you liking the infantry (I believe you are still in, right?) and how's college coming? I start junior college next year (I'll be a HS senior), but I'm going to get a few credits out of the way in the junior college.



Gop, it is very rare that exercises are "unfair".  I doubt that the American marines will vastly out-number the opposition, especially when they are defending.  I don't mean to be argumentative, but claims like "we have never lost", just don't tend to be true in reality.

Er, and Gop, I certainly don't pretend to be well respected on the forum!  Respect is something that is earned, and it is hard to fathom how it can be earned through opinionated chit-chat alone - and I speak my mind and am argumentative far too often at best!!

 

In answer to the quote, the first year of university is so easy its almost a waste of time, and the infantry is all fun.  It will be even more fun when my transfer finally goes through and they actually start paying me!  I came second in a small shooting competition yesterday, just out of 16 of us or so, all fun and games.



 


I don't know anything about these exercises outside of what SCCO said, you would know much better than me. He said that the USMC brings an entire MEU, whereas the other guys are only bringing  1,000-5,000 or so guys. You may be right for sure, I'm just don't know anything about them.
 
Yimmy, you are a very well respected member of this forum, seriously. I'll take your opinion over these guys who aren't in the infantry anyday.
 
Awesome, I'm glad that the first year is easy (thank God! ), that leaves me more time to pick up the ladies and hang out with friends (Hey, I have to "Get to know the area", right?). I figured infantry would be a blast, but yes, I could see how you might like to get paid :). 2/16 is awesome, I hear the SAS calling you.

 
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