US Marines and British Infantry

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BadNews Just to Clrify My Statement 2/17/2007 1:41:44 AM

When I said the USMC has never been defeated in battle, I meant when deployed as an expeditionary unit.

That should not be confused with situations like Guam.

In December 1941 for example, The Japanese landed 5500 Japanese Marines on Guam, The USMC had a garrison of 153 officers and men reinforeced with 80 local miltiamen armed with rifles and (4x) .30 cal MG, they held out for three days before being ordered to lower their flag, while technically you can call that a defeat, I don't care if you were british, french, german or from the planet Zorcon, there is no way that you are going to survive that. In Ancient Greece 300 Spartans held off 5000 or so Persians for weeks, they eventually were annilated, but I would still hardly call that defeat.

I do stick to my contention however that the USMC deployed as an expeditionary force has not been defeated.

More to the point, comparisons like this thread intends serve no real purpose other than to thump on one's chest. When you really read some of my post on this particular thread, and the post SCCO Marine made, we have been saying all along that very point. But some try to make their points by implying the USMC is not an elite branch of service, we do what we do far better than anyone else in the world.

The French Foriegn Legion can not be called incapable for their defeat at Dein Bein Phu, they were place hundreds of miles behind enemy lines with out adequate logistic support and fought valiantly before being forced to surrender. In fact the logistics problem was so bad, that the French government ask US President Eisenhower for some covert logistical assistance and CATS, the forerunner of Air America delivered 1000's of tons of supplies via air drop during the siege.

The British withdrawel at Dunkirk while a defeat was in itself a tremndous display of courage and bravery as well as some superb examples of leadership in managing to pull the withdrawel off.

The Polish Army was crushed by the Nazis displayed tremendous courage and in fact caused a surprisingly high amount of casualties on the germans.

As Marines and soldiers, what ever your nationality or branch of service, you are called upon to perform seemingly impossible task under horendous conditions. To compare two allied forces without intimate knowledge of both their structure and tactics is a fool's errand.

Since WWI, The French, the British and the US have been inseparable allies who have worked together to make the world a better place inspite of differences of opinions on some issues.

If you do not believe that the branch of service that you serve in is the best in the world at what they do, you have no business remaining in that service.

The courage of one's enemy may honor them, but the bond with one's allies are what forges them

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GOP 2/17/2007 3:30:42 PM

The MC strenght is not through its Men , but through its equipment .

Man to man , they 're not better than the RMC , the FFL or else . In fact , they are behind .

The MC is an Army on its own , let 's be clear about this . The USMC is a BATTLEGROUP .

They have Tanks , Artillery , Jets , etc .

As a whole , they can do much more than the RMC or FFL . I wish the Legion had the same hardware to play with .

Once again , it is down to how much $ you spend . (as usual)

On the ground , the MC employs usual US Army drills :

1) Firepower

2) Single envelopment

3) Air cover

Nothing new .

I 've worked many times with the USMC , and SSCOMarine is right when he
says that Marines hold their lines like nobody else does . They can
assault too .

The problem they have is the lack of "guts" . Here , I know that I am putting my finger on something they hate ...

Sorry SSCOMarine , but instead to assault , they 'll call for CAS . How many times I witness the stuff ...

But it is the right call to make !

Us , FFL , GIA , RPIMA , we do NOT have the same firepower behind us to
wait while the enemy is getting pounded by Arty or CAS . We assault .

Some will say , what 's the problem with asking for support ? There is
not problem with asking for support , but when you don 't have any
, I ' ll take any Legionnaire over any Marine to get the "hill" .

I mean , the best French Airforce Commandos (the CPA10) can barely take on the FFL , especialy the REI (Regiment Etranger d 'Infanterie) without leaving plenty of bodies on the ground .

I know :(

Nevermind that , the Legion is now different than in the old days .
Sure , they lost few battles and yes , they did get wipped out on few
bad days . But nowadays , things are different . The FFL is the most
capable assault Force in the French Army , by miles .

They HAVE what they need to do whatever their task is .

If the FFL had the same numbers and assets than the USMC , they would be unbeatable .

Trust me .

Cheers .

Lack of guts? I would say that the fact that they call in CAS instead of assualting is much, much more a matter of having brains, and much less about not having guts. Look, all this bs bravado about "The FFL taking the hill with no air support" is absolutely ridiculous...it's not tough, it's dumb. Why? Because if I'm a grunt on the ground, I want all the help I can get. Bullets in a combat zone are real, and they kill. So no need for bravado, I'm going to blast the 'hill' to hell with CAS, then go up and kill the enemy and take the hill. There is no need not to.

Call in CAS if you have the opportunity, because assaulting an enemy position with no support and getting your guys killed isn't cool at all. You know this.

BW, whatsup with you comparing units? You should be so far above this. To be fair, the RM is similar to FR in size, so they can be so much more selective than the USMC. There is probably a reason they are "better" as you say.

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violentnuke 2/17/2007 3:33:03 PM

The Us Lost on tghe Home front Pure And Simple, piss poor decisions by Elected officials from the get go,

We depended on the Home Front in error. It's the same today with the war on terror.

A terrorist is a military man or like man pausing as an equal with civilians in making deals. Eg. when an Arafat is there pretending to be a reformed civilian, it's ludicrous, the man is a military man with no excuse for losing the mission he has: destroying the enemy. Civilians on the other hand are taught to compromise, to make deals, to even be allowed making excuses.

Having the like of Maos or Arafat make deals with our civilians politicos who use systems and other agencies and excuses to get things done is simply not a fair political fight.

I say the US Army lost because the US Army failed to take somehow control of the situation and to inform, and we still are failing nowadays in understanding how terrorism works: it is backed by foreign military structures and use demoralizing tactics while blending in a hostaged civilian population which cannot be possibly be responsible, let alone blamed, for losing wars they are not trained to fight.

In any case, I digress. The point I really wanted to make is that a US Army soldier relies on the heart for motivation and bravery, the Jar Head relies on blunt tool like resilience. If troop morale goes down the Marine unit should not be affected in combat, but the US army unit might be affected, and this is what the Japanese general meant.

If I were a General, I'd want the Marine Corp, but as a grunt, I'd rather fight with a US Army guy because I am confident that I can help my combat morale, pushing myself, and inspiring my buddies to follow on, maintaining morale as the enemy challenges me in demoralizing hostage taking and suicide bombing tactics.

British Army NCOs complain even that US Army units are made of primitive soldiers, but let us face it, the jar head factor is invaluable when confronting a demoralization based enemy like the terrorist. Sure, I agree, we need units which are based on fighting morale so as to win also the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people, but the Marine stop gap safety is needed to gain time when newly challenged by nasty tactics. Each branch has its key disciplines and attributes to contribute, and it is not a competition between who is better or which attribute is better, but a combined armed principle that even predates Napoleon. The Knights of the Round Table competed in how each could add on, and not against each other in pointless skirmishes and duels of strengths and wits, Pokemon style. The weakest of them all in fact brought all the morale support the others lacked when they got divided, in his successful quest for the Graal itself, which others had failed at.

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Ehran 2/17/2007 4:09:50 PM

badnews dien bien phu was only about 115 or 120 miles straightline from hanoi and probably no more than 100 miles from the limits of french controlled territory at the time.
i'd also note there were a whole lot more than 5000 persians in that army even if it never got close to the million the greeks claimed.

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GOP 2/18/2007 3:22:04 AM

""Your assesment about guts
is very much debatable as well, no US MArine, nor No US SOldier that I
have ever had the pleasure to serve with has ever lacked for guts. We
do what must be done, whther with bomb or bayonet, it is about winning
that is all.""

Don 't get me wrong . I have a lot of respect for the Marines , or for any other GOOD Grunts .

I salute them as Brothers in Arms . TA TA TAAAA !

But they don 't have legionnaires 's guts .

I know .

Cheers .

It's like they say, if your gonna be dumb you better be tough. The Legion (speaking from open source material about their battle history) is tactically dumb, but tough.

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Bluewings12 2/18/2007 10:12:17 AM

GOP , I don 't mind comparing the USMC with the RM or FFL , even if the Legion is not usually tasked to take "beaches" .
That 's the RPIMA 's job .
In fact , the USMC and the Legion are often given the same task : Spearhead ~because of their skill and will to fight~ , then clearing the ground for the following "normal" Troops . On exemple is GW1 , the French had Armor and Arty but it was the Legion who was driving ahead through the Iraki desert at a fast pace , clearing for the following AMX-30s .
Look at Fallujah (GW2) , it was mostly the USMC who was sent to crush the opposition and not the "normal" Troops .
So yes , we can compare them to a certain extent .

GOP , the Legion is not "dumb" , or at least not anymore . In the old time , the FFL was indeed used as a bulldozer and sometimes as a "dumb" bulldozer . This was because France didn 't "really" care about the wellfare of "foreigners" and "ex-convicts" . This is not the case anymore . France did turn the FFL into its most patent and professional ground Force .
They now all are highly trained professional , they use the most advance hardware including the latest HighTech gizmos .
The REI (Regiment Etranger d 'Infantrie) or the REP (Regiment Etranger Parachutiste) are without a doubt the best Troops France can field .
In the old time , to be sent to the Legion was like a "punishment" , now it is seen as a "reward" . Many Legionnaires left their Country and Regiment to enlist in the FFL . We have ex-Marines , ex-RM , ex-Gurkhas , ex-Spetnatz , etc . They willingly decided to go for what is known to be the Elite of Assault Warfare .

Nationalism BS aside , the FFL IS the reference nowadays .

Cheers .

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Bluewings12 2/18/2007 12:17:59 PM

Nice video clip :
h*tp://www.legion-etrangere.com/telecharge/video/Cliplegion.wmv

Cheers .

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colts Im scik of posts...."whos tougher" my dads stronger than yours 2/18/2007 2:55:01 PM

I cannot believe that we are questioning the "guts" of service men of any country? Do they not all put their life at risk? In harms way for the freedoms of their country? I am curious, isnt that what all the services do? American, British alike?

Logically one cannot even argue that SP have more "guts" than a regular unit in the Army, Corps, Navy, or Air Force. Dont special forces and regular grunts, to logistics all put their life in harms way? Okay so people that are SEALs, or Recon Marines, Green Beret et.c have much more advanced training, and in that sense they are more elite. However they are just a few spokes of the wheel. And bravery cannot be questioned, all have said they will die for their country, family, and friends and even more couragous they are willing to kill if deemed necissary. If one is in the teams, or SAS, whatever highly trained unit they belong to they are there because that is who they are.....highly motivated, more capable, stronger willed.

Now adressing who would be more capable, it is not a question of toughness, or ya'lls "guts" but of tactics, and that question will be debated forever. For regardless of the Corps never lossing a battle, or us never losing a war (nam is debatable, we more pulled out) but regardless of what the services do they are alway wrong in the minds of politicians and the free men they fight to defend because I believe that it is in mans nature to always feel the need to put in his "two cents."

and that is the american way, or for that matter any free peoples. Life, liberty and freedom to bitch.

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GOP 2/18/2007 3:30:11 PM

GOP , I don 't mind comparing the USMC with the RM or FFL , even if the Legion is not usually tasked to take "beaches" .

That 's the RPIMA 's job .

In fact , the USMC and the Legion are often given the same task :
Spearhead ~because of their skill and will to fight~ , then clearing
the ground for the following "normal" Troops . On exemple is GW1 , the
French had Armor and Arty but it was the Legion who was driving ahead
through the Iraki desert at a fast pace , clearing for the following
AMX-30s .

Look at Fallujah (GW2) , it was mostly the USMC who was sent to crush the opposition and not the "normal" Troops .

So yes , we can compare them to a certain extent .

GOP , the Legion is not "dumb" , or at least not anymore . In the old
time , the FFL was indeed used as a bulldozer and sometimes as a "dumb"
bulldozer . This was because France didn 't "really" care about the
wellfare of "foreigners" and "ex-convicts" . This is not the case
anymore . France did turn the FFL into its most patent and professional
ground Force .

They now all are highly trained professional , they use the most advance hardware including the latest HighTech gizmos .

The REI (Regiment Etranger d 'Infantrie) or the REP (Regiment Etranger
Parachutiste) are without a doubt the best Troops France can field .

In the old time , to be sent to the Legion was like a "punishment" ,
now it is seen as a "reward" . Many Legionnaires left their Country and
Regiment to enlist in the FFL . We have ex-Marines , ex-RM , ex-Gurkhas
, ex-Spetnatz , etc . They willingly decided to go for what is known to
be the Elite of Assault Warfare .

Nationalism BS aside , the FFL IS the reference nowadays .

Cheers .

I highly respect your opinion BW, you've BTDT, whereas I rely just on cheezy/biased Discover documentaries and other open source material. To be fair, I've talked to guys on other websites (not exactly talking to them, but you get the point) from elite units who say their toughest Force on Force training exercise was against the FFL (it was in the Jungle though). I understand that the FFL are unbelievably good at assaulting, but are you sure they are the highest trained force that France can field? The GIGN is extremely well respected within the CT community and French Combat Swimmers (sorry BW, forget the name of the unit) are regarded by some to be the best in the business. I'm sure you've trained with all these guys. Saying the USMC lacks guts would really piss me off, but I realize you are French and France's military reputation is pretty well known (touche!

The USMC is designed to not only win, but to dominate. Not only to win/dominate, but also have an extremely high survivability rate. That's why they have things like CAS/Arty, etc. I mean, if my unit was tasked with assualting a large chunk of land, I'd drop as much CAS as I could first, then attack. Why? Because I want to win, dominate, and survive...f*ck ego and "guts", I'm not going to get my guys killed for that. If it's availible, use it. Remember that thread a while back about "USMC vs FFL" on the armed forces board? The bottom line is, the USMC would bomb the living crap out of the FFL, then drive their armor in the middle of the FFL's infantry while using CAS, then the USMC would follow up with infantry and it would be over extremely fast. Each unit is designed differently.

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Bluewings12 2/18/2007 6:06:35 PM

Colt , to have what I call "guts" ~or bravery~ is very rarely something you ' re born with . Some are more brave than others because of their inner strengh , or because they had a harsh youth , or because of ...
You know what I mean ;)
In most case , Bravery is something that you learn . Some Units teach you better than others . Often , Bravery comes from COHESION and EXEMPLE . You become brave because you saw someone with more bravery than you have , or because you CARE more about others than yourself . There is a bit of self-sacrifice in Bravery .
Teamwork makes you brave .

In fact , the FFL do not make you more brave than if you join the USMC , or the RM , or else . What the Legion has ~more than any other Units~ is the competitive spirit . It 's not hard to understand , being amongst (surrounded) by Polishs , Russians , Chineses , Brazilians , French , Germans , etc , develop a kind of "national pride" . You don 't want to give up in front of everybody as you somehow hold your own flag . "If that Spanish can do the jungle course in 2hrs , I 'll do it in less than that !"
You know what I mean ;)
Furthermore , 80% of the recruits do NOT speak French when they join . Even if the Legion teach you French , it is up to those who speak French to help the ones who don 't . And that fact alone create a very strong friendship , make no mistake . The "human" factor in the Legion is far stronger than in the French AirForce Commandos , as an exemple .
Also , nearly 30% of the recruits come from other Units , they already have a military background . Everybody shares his knowledge , experience , etc . Nothing magic here .

GOP , the Legion might not be the highest trained Force in France if you want to compare them with Units like the GIGN , Commando Hubert (Combat swimmers) , or CPA10 . As an exemple , if you ever ask the FFL to free hostages onboard an Airliner , the hijackers AND the hostages are probably in deep trouble ! (lol)
But for what France is asking from them , the Legionnaires are the best .

Now , I cannot see the point to speak of a clash in between USMC and FFL . The Legion , it 's 8000 Men when the USMC has over 150.000 Men . That 's 20 to 1 . Furthermore , the USMC is a BATTLEGROUP as I sais earlier . Now , if the Legion can count on Tanks and Jets from the other French Forces , I predict a massive bloodbath on both sides !!!

But if the numbers and assets are equals on both sides , I sincerely believe no-one can beat the Legion .
No-one

Cheers .

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