ww2 jap infantry- did they suck or what?

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Ehran RE:Hiroshima and Nagasaki humane 8/27/2004 3:06:58 PM

it seems they could have given the japs more than 3 days to decide on surrender before hitting nagasaki. the invasion wasn't imminent by any means so there wasn't much time pressure.

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scholar RE:Hiroshima and Nagasaki humane 8/27/2004 3:51:39 PM

Did we give them an ultimatum after Hiroshima? Like, surrender in 24 hours or we do it again?

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joe6pack RE:Hiroshima and Nagasaki humane 8/27/2004 4:11:26 PM

"Did we give them an ultimatum after Hiroshima? Like, surrender in 24 hours or we do it again?" Not exactly.. If I remember correctly, after Truman got word that the weapon had been successfully tested he released the "Potsdam Declaration" calling on Japan to surrender. It sort of hinted that we were had a new weapon capable of great destruction and the Japanese would be well advised to surrender. This was promptly ignored by the Japanese. Hours after the Hiroshima bomb, Truman addressed the nation explaining that we had developed and dropped an atomic weapon on Hiroshima. I think this was sort of the, ok the super weapon is now public knowlwedge, we have more and will use them declaration... However, I'd have to do some checking to see if a formal message demanding surrender was sent after Hirsoshima.

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beersheba RE:Hiroshima and Nagasaki humane 8/28/2004 3:23:58 AM

Perhaps Ehran, but after six long years, I think the Allieds wanted it over and done with quickly. I don't think the Allies back then were fans of setting time limits like nations are these days..

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PuckaMan RE:Hiroshima and Nagasaki humane 8/28/2004 3:49:04 AM

Another point to realise is the agreement with Stalin to declare war on Japan 3 months after Geramny was defeated. After almost totally ignoring Churchill's "We should shake hands with the Soviets as far east as possible", the USA was acutely aware that the Allied-Soviet pact was one of convienience, and Soviet occupation/control of even a Part of Japan, especially with its skilled technical and industrial base would alter the power balance in the Pacific on a very large scale. A 1950s US assesment concluded that "Soviet control of Japan would add a further 25% to thier industrail capacity, and provide a large pool of skilled labor and knowledge that would have a large impact on Soviet technology and capability" - So the need to knock out Japan before the Soviets could intervene was paramount, so any way to shorten the war and force the Japanese to surrender to the Western Allies, was paramount. BTW, found out today where I'll be living in Japan - I'll be in Tokyo (my 2nd preference, 1st was Osaka) -I'm leaving late next month. Trading Melbourne for Tokyo...... exciting and daunting. I'm looking forward to it, like a kid the last few days before Christmas......... Pucka

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Ehran RE:Hiroshima and Nagasaki humane 8/28/2004 7:57:28 PM

would the russians have had any way to actually invade japan? their amphib capacity was never anything to boast about. the allies could have moved the dday fleet into the pacific but the russians had nothing vaguely comparable. good luck with the move puckaman. hope whatever you do pays well cause japan is supposed to be a hellish expensive place to live.

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PuckaMan RE:Hiroshima and Nagasaki humane 8/28/2004 8:08:06 PM

Thanks Ehran, it is expensive, but some things are quite cheap (electronics, etc.) but the company I'll be woking for, pays pretty well. Well, considering Stalin declared war on Japan the day of Hiroshima, they must have thought they could do it - landing on Hokkaido which is comparitively sparsely populated. I strongly doubt they would have gone for Honshu. Then again, with the Soviet Masses (and the will to use them whatever the cost) would have most likely overcome Japan, whose Navy was all but destroyed, the primary resources were low or depleted (oil esp.) and thier most skilled/experienced troops/pilots dead. Also, the Soviets had already fought the Japanese in 1938, when the T34 made its comabt debut and Zhukov came to prominece - the opportunity to regain old Manchuria and possibly prominent Pacific Island was too good to pass up. Pucka

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gf0012-aust RE:Hiroshima and Nagasaki humane 8/28/2004 8:17:17 PM

Puka, I'd argue that Stalin declared war on japan as an issue of opportunism. He had no idea how many atomic weapons the yanks had and decided to hedge his bets on the fact that the Japanese would be unable to respond effectively. It was a good excuse to go and sieze some Islands in the north which AFAIK are still in dispute. Some people would call it grave robbing. ;)

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PuckaMan RE:Hiroshima and Nagasaki humane 8/29/2004 8:35:56 PM

Yeah Sakhalin is a point of contention, I believe. Re Stalin's opportunitism, that goes back to the point I was making about Nagasaki - to show the world (Stalin particularly) that the Bomb was not a one off........ Pucka

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Ehran RE:Hiroshima and Nagasaki humane 8/30/2004 1:52:42 PM

i doubt stalin had any ideas about landing on japan itself but there was a lot of jap occupied land in manchuria up for grabs.

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Nambu RE:ww2 jap infantry- movies - scholar 9/19/2004 6:54:56 AM

In Japan I don't think you're going to find many (if not any) war movies along the lines of Thin Red Line or Schindler's List. Self-criticsm and introspection on that level just isn't in their culture. I visited a war museum in Tokyo and was surprised to see both the extent of their patriotism and the lack of atonement (or even mention) of wartime atrocities. They see themselves as having been forced to fight WWII against the Americans and the last exhibits in the museum are about their young kamikazees. In other words, the war with the Americans may have been lost but Japan still kept their face. The only film I've ever seen about the war which really deals with the suffering of their people under American bombardment was actually not a film, but a manga comic strip called, "Grave of the Fireflies." Publicly discussing the burdens of the war on their own people has been consigned to the world of literature and comics, but not to that of film.

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Nambu RE:Hiroshima and Nagasaki humane 9/19/2004 6:58:51 AM

In our history books the strategy of Stalin to this effect was described as "taking the icing off the cake." In relation to American costs of the war (both human and material), his was very low.

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bigfella RE:Jap Infantry/Hiroshima and Nagasaki 9/20/2004 4:22:16 AM

I'm a bit late to this one, but a few thoughts: The whole jap military machine (like its society) was this strange mix of modern & almost medieval. Their navy & airforce were cutting edge, as were some of their tactics, yet they had no ASW training (cost them dearly too). Their infantry should be seen as outstanding light infantry. They were brave, fast and tactically flexible (in attack anyway). They frequently crossed terrain that the allies thought was impassable and fought againt impossible odds in attack and defence. Their logistics, on the other hand, were crap. Over land or sea, even without disruption, they struggled to supply their rapid conquests. Many died of disease & malnutrition. On the Kokoda trail in New Guinea they resorted to cannibalism, I don't imagine this was the only instance. My uncle fought them in the closing stages of the Malaya campaign. Despite his hatred of the Japanese (he was a POW on the Thai/Burma railway) he would never deny their fighting abilities. On the bombs: I have never had any problem with Hiroshima. The aforesaid uncle was in Changi prison in 1945, and believs the bomb saved his life. My problem is with Nagasaki. The raid was actually brought forward due to poor weather. The decision to surrender was as good as made (though the yanks didn't know this), with the status of the emperor the main sticking point. had America waited a few days it seems unlikely the second bomb would have been needed. Scaring the Russians is a pretty poor reason to kill 50,000 people, no matter what you think of them. As it happened the Russians grabbed manchuria & Nth Korea, and gave them up. I can't see an invasion of the home islands coming off - not enough troops or ships in position.

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MattZone Grave of the Fireflies - Scholar 9/20/2004 3:42:34 PM

Isao Takahata made this into an animated movie in 1988. It shows the suffering from the bombardment, but sticks with the Japanese tradition of not making any mention of Japan's role in starting World War II or the atrocities it committed. On its own merits, it is an incredible film and I recommend everyone here get a copy of it from Amazon.com or elsewhere. There have only been two films that after I have watched them I was left speechless, along with everyone else who watched it with me: one was Saving Private Ryan, the other was Grave of the Fireflies.

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timon_phocas RE:Japanese Infantry 10/6/2004 6:27:16 PM

One of the factors that hasn't been hightlighted is the geographical impossibilityy of retreat. The German 15th Army could retreat from Calais to Germany in the summer of 1944. (wasn't it the 15th army?) It's kind of tough to march home from Saipan. Given that there was no option to fall back and fight another, they stood and exacted the maximum price from the U.S. In a place like Iwo Jima or Pelielu there wasn't even room for maneuver. So a lot of the attacks they defended against simply had to be straight-up-the-middle meatgrinders.

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