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Subject: Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!!
GotGavin?    6/9/2004 5:15:06 PM
First posting.... I know (or think I know) the pros & cons of recoilless rifles. The main logistical con: the perforated shell casing, i.e. you can't use a standard 105 mm howitzer shell in a 105 mm RR, so more supply issues. In the spirit of the new AMOS mortar & older Russina 120 mm SP mortar/howitzer artillery, could you fire a mortar round from recoilless-like smoothbore tube??? Make an 81 mm shoulder-fired weapon that uses the same ammo as the 81 mm mortar. I know, the Carl G is 84 mm, but think of logistics. Vary the charge to vary the range & recoil blast. It seems to me the shape of the mortar shell is better suited for recoilless fire than the perforated RR casings. How about firing 120 mm mortar shells from 120 mm tank guns for urban warfare without shooting through 5 buildings (over-penetration). Bring back the 106 RR firing 106 mm mortar rounds or make a new 105 mm mortar shell that fires from 106 mm mortars, 106 mm RR, 105 mm M1A1, and 105 mm howitzers. Turn those big guns into low powerurban-warfare demolition guns. The Russians did this a while ago, but use a longer range "special round" along with mortar rounds in their's. I say use standard mortar rounds and standard howitzer rounds in one gun system. Simplify logistics for mortars/howitzers/shoulder-fired weapons. The AMOS with indirect & DIRECT mortar fire facinates me (there are other, similar systems out there). Am I missing something in the mortar or howitzer design that prevents this?? Could some good designing overcome any problems with firing, recoil, aiming, etc...?
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! - anit-armor Mortar?   6/11/2004 6:25:29 PM
I don't know that the two work interchangeably -- seems like if you optmized your round as a RR round, with the perforations, you'd not have an optimal mortar round, and vice versa. I could be wrong, but the mortar expends its energy in the tube like a rifle, etc, just at low(er) velocities and pressures, giving it the arcing trajectory, but it still have a pretty strong recoil impulse. If you make it recoilless, don't you lose loft on the trajectory?
 
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Sam    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -GotGavin   6/12/2004 12:52:08 AM
You have obviously never set the base plate on a mortar. No such beast as a "soft launch" mortar or arty piece. And what you need for one makes it useless for the other. Can't have a arty round without a rotating/obturating band (seals gasses in) and can't have a mortar round with one. How would a common round make for a lower logistics requirement? You havn't addressed the ROF issue. Without lowering the ROF you don't reduce how much is used. Arty will need the same amout of ammo resupply as will the infantry company. "I once heard someone say that the bullet (shell) is the only weapon that, once fired, will always go where it's aimed. Missles have a thousand ways of malfunctioning...." That person never dealt with copperhead, did he :) "What if you had a 105/6 mm breech-loaded mortar turrent and you're lobbing rounds off when an RPG team popped up. You could just load a 105 mm beehive round and engage them. SOunds like efficient use of ammo." No an efficent use of ammo would be to have your dismounts cap them with M-16/M-4s and SAWs. If you are "lobbing" rounds then it means you are supporting the maneuver element with indirect fire. We have a combined arms team. Use it. And quit listening to someone that claims over 20 years in service and is still a lieutenant. They kicked him out of the MC reserves for a reason. ID 10 Tango
 
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   RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -GotGavin   6/12/2004 1:45:57 PM
Hey Folks, It would be nice if it could be done. I am thinking along the lines of bunker buster with a morter with a open bottom that vents into the ground or behind you. It would require a rimfire ignition I think? can anybody think of anything I did not mention? Sincerely, Keith
 
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Sam    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -keit   6/12/2004 2:28:02 PM
Mortars are an area weapon. Will take luck and a few rounds to hit a bunker. Also will hit on top. Where bunkers normally have a couple layers of protection. Remember the purpose of bunkers is to protect your crew served from arty. Plenty of overhead protection "morter with a open bottom that vents into the ground or behind you." So what propels the round out of the tube? We have weapons that defeat bunkers has a AT and thermobaric round to boot. Comes with a 9mm spotting gun and can mount NVDs. Its the SMAW. Why develope a hybred mortar system to do its job?
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -GotGavin   6/12/2004 3:41:15 PM
>>And quit listening to someone that claims over 20 years in service and is still a lieutenant. They kicked him out of the MC reserves for a reason.<< He was USMCR? I had not realized -- I tend to zone out on most info on his site, but for some reason got the impression he was active duty. I had assumed he was kicked out, though, given his assortment of statements about the USMC . . .
 
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   RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -keit   6/12/2004 10:55:48 PM
Hey Sam, I think his idea be simple! I am not qualified to speak dirrectly to it! I think the Brits used a rocket in the war of 1812 for indirect fire. It could just as easily been used in direct fire. I think this idea of having a recoiless weapon that can be used in both indirect and direct fire would indeed (as advertised) reduce the types of weapons on the to&e. for more you will need to field it in R&D an see if it would work! Sincerely, Keith
 
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Sam    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! Horse   6/12/2004 11:50:05 PM
He tries to give the impression that he was active duty. And was for less than a year. Kicked out during comm school for being a fat body. Then joined the reserves when in college. Completed OCS so he did have the title of officer in the Corps but was dropped at The Basic School. Never made it to the FMF. Became a USAR officer instead.
 
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Sam    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -keit   6/13/2004 12:29:47 AM
The idea sounds good but lets take it to its conclusion. Now you have a recoilless rifle/mortar combo. Who carries it? Do you give up your company mortar section and equip the assaultmen (SMAW gunners)with it? What happens when they are busting bunkers and you need a indirect fire mission? Do we call off the assault to engage the enemy trucks off loading ammo over the hill . Or do we continue the assault and pass up the indirect fire target? Don't tell me you keep both. Doesn't happen that way in the military. Even if it did you have given me either a good bunkerbuster thats a POS mortar or a good mortar thats a crappy bunkerbuster vice the weapons we have that kick butt at what they were designed to do. And once again it doesnt reduce the ROF so no logistic reduction. It may reduce the types of weapons but not the amount of fire. Example, with numbers pulled out of my rear, I am tasked with assaulting a position that has 4 MG bunkers. I will need 5 min of HE suppression from my company mortars for the assault, and 2 min of smoke to mask my assault teams getting into firing positions. So I need 100 HE for the mortars, 20 RPM divided by 3 guns = 34 rounds per tube 50 rds of HC smoke. Build fast and sustain for 2 min (wind dependant). 4 bunkers= 12 SMAW rds or 3 per team, although accurate you sometimes miss when people are trying to kill you. And they will get some of my gunners so I need to be able to have each gunner able to take out a primary and secondary. So 150 Mortar rounds and 12 SMAW rounds. If I use this RR/Mortar I will need 162 rounds. How does the logistics burden change? As a footnote the Chechnians (bad spelling, Im a jarhead) shot RPG rounds at high angle during the 2d battle of Grozny as a poor mans harrasment mortar.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! Horse   6/13/2004 12:58:20 PM
>>He tries to give the impression that he was active duty. And was for less than a year. Kicked out during comm school for being a fat body. Then joined the reserves when in college. Completed OCS so he did have the title of officer in the Corps but was dropped at The Basic School. Never made it to the FMF. Became a USAR officer instead.<< So no active-army time either? His page gave me the impression he had been an 82nd guy at some point. Sounds like he's in a pretty rare, if not dignified, group -- I'm guessing there aren't that many guys out there that the USMC allows to come back and try to earn the coveted gold "L" for second award of their Can't Make the Grade ribbon. I can totally believe what you're saying (and it would explain a whole lot about the guy), but it does make me wonder how he got hooked up with the other authors listed on that Air-Mech Strike book, most of whom I remember as being senior field grades or generals.
 
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   RE:Recoilless Mortar/Rifle?!!! -keit   6/13/2004 8:33:32 PM
Hey Sam, I would have called in AH-64 and smoke to cover my laser unit, but as a standard method you could use the same round in both weapons, but like I said I would have called in AH-64's to pound the MG bunkers. a single hellfire with thermobarionic should do per bunker. Keep your morters for something else, thus my support for GotGavin! Sincerely, Keith
 
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