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Subject: Recoilless Rifles
leoinnyc    3/22/2004 6:11:18 PM
Why aren't Recoilless Rifles more popular? What are their disadvantages? They seem like such a cheap and effective way to blow stuff up. For taking out bunkers, gun emplacements, caves, apartments, or virtually any stationary or slow-moving target at close-to-medium range.
Also, do they not scale down well? Can you build recoilless small arms?
 
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shawn    RE:Recoilless Rifles   3/22/2004 9:15:33 PM
I dunno what you mean. Recoiless rifles are very much in widespread use worldwide, the most common being the Carl Gustav 84mm RR, which is used in over 30 countries, and has proven to be adaptable to changing battlefield conditions through the introduction of new rounds and technology. The US M136 AT-4 is actually a single shot 84mm recoiless rifle. The M3 MAAWS is actually a lightweight Carl Gustav 84mm used by US Rangers and SEALs. As for calibre size, there used to be 57mm and 60mm calibre RRs, but they are not effective anymore in a modern battlefield. Why would you want a RR small arms? What purpose would you need something like a 20mm RR handgun for that a normal rifle or grenade launcher couldn't do? And remember that the biggest fault of recoilless rifles is the backblast. Firing a RR handgun would be like firing a blackpowder pistol, you'll get a blinding flash and a lot of smoke. I've stood next to an old 106mm RR night firing, and it was pretty spectacular and deafening.
 
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Aces    RE:Recoilless Rifles   3/22/2004 9:50:32 PM
What's the differnce in the firing mechanism between these things: recoiless rifle, grenade launcher, rocket launcher? Is AT-4 a rocket launcher or it's recoiless rifle? And SMAW/RPG is a rocket launcher or not?
 
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   RE:Recoilless Rifles   3/22/2004 10:58:52 PM
Is it firing a rocket, a grenade, or a bullet? The firing mechanism, I would imagine, remains largely the same. Pull the trigger to ignite a chemical explosion and propel your projectile out the end of a long tube. For specifics, go to the individual piece. :PP
 
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towgunner1960    RE:Recoilless Rifles   3/23/2004 6:56:08 AM
Aces, a recoiless rifle and rocket launcher are the exact same except a rr has rifling in the barrel to spin the projectile which is shaped like a bullet, wheras a rocket launchers projectile relys on fins to stabilze it. At-4, Smaw and rpg are all rocket launchers. a grenade launcher is like a rifle bullet and also has rifling in the barrel. Instead of firing a solid projectile like a rifle it fires a explosive shell, flare or hughe shotgun round.....
 
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Heorot    RE:Recoilless Rifles - towgunner1960   3/23/2004 1:44:54 PM
"a recoiless rifle and rocket launcher are the exact same" No they aren't. A recoilless rifle is an artillery piece and fires a shell, not a rocket. The shell is specially designed with an overlarge charge and a frangible base. When fired, the projectile comes out the front and the base of the shell case fractures in a controlled manner to emit high velocity gasses. The forces on the gasses and the projectile are equal, hence the weapon is recoilless.
 
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Worcester    RE:Recoilless Rifles - Heorot   3/23/2004 1:55:13 PM
"A recoiless rifle is an artillery piece". No its not. It's any barrel with rifling (as Tow gunner said) which emits gas out the back to reduce/eliminate recoil. This includes the Carl Gustav and some anti-tank guns. Why aren't they used more? Because, apart from the infantry weapons, they are heavy and short-ranged compared with anti-tank missiles and they emit a large flash out the back which, if not seen by the enemy, can set the camouflage on fire. Recolless rifles are inherently a single shot weapon.
 
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towgunner1960    RE:Recoilless Rifles   3/23/2004 2:10:18 PM
Heorot, you are correct in that a rr has a shell case wheras a rocket does not, but I meant the principles are the same. They both use a counter mass to eliminate or mostly eliminate recoil. As far as a rr being a artillery weapon, I have to take exception to that, as I was Infantry assigned to a 106mm rr. (This was before our division-24th, transistioned to TOW). It was still a kick to fire that .50 ranging rifle attached to the side of the 106mm. (We used to set empty coke cans downrange to shoot at), great fun...
 
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leoinnyc    RE:Recoilless Rifles   3/23/2004 10:44:08 PM
Thank you - very informative
 
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shawn    RE:Recoilless Rifles-towgunner1960   3/23/2004 11:08:06 PM
Towgunner1960 said: "It was still a kick to fire that .50 ranging rifle attached to the side of the 106mm. (We used to set empty coke cans downrange to shoot at), great fun.. " The 106mm Lima Foxtrot I mentioned before in my previous post ended with a .5" spotter round burrsting in the breech. The gunner then spent a few hours in a hospital getting shrapnel removed from his neck and chest.
 
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IsoT    RE:Recoilless Rifles - Worchester   3/24/2004 2:08:29 AM
RR is not nesessarily a singleshot weapon. LAW is, but that is more of an execption than rule. Or do you mean that semi/fullauto fire is unachievable?
 
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Heorot    RE:Recoilless Rifles - Worchester   3/24/2004 1:00:37 PM
When I said that RR were artillery pieces, I meant in the sense of a shell that explodes inside the weapon to launch a free flying projectile that does not carry its own propellant as is the case with a rocket. An artillery piece doesn't have to be rifled. Smoothbore artillery was still in use as recently as the ACW and were still called artillery.
 
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Heorot    RE:Recoilless Rifles - Heorot   3/24/2004 1:10:45 PM
"Recolless rifles are inherently a single shot weapon." Perhaps for modern armies fighting other modern armies but sometimes the sheer lightness compared to conventional artillery is its own virtue. I saw Serbs irregulars using one during the Bosnian fighting and they were not being used as single shot weapons. In the mountains of the Balkans, it was often the only artillery available and firing over open sights in a restricting terrain at infantry positions, the short range didn't matter so much.
 
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Worcester    RE:Recoilless Rifles - Heorot/Isot & single shot   3/24/2004 2:38:53 PM
"An artillery piece doesn't have to be rifled." No one said it did. Just that a recoiless rifle doesn't have to be artillery. "single shot weapon" This is military slang for if you fire it, the enemy will kill you. With the recoiless flash and modern IR sights you wont get a second shot. Recoiless rifles of 106mm -120mm caliber were replaced in the US and UK 20 years ago. The short range (1000m is normal) and the weight of the damn thing make almost any man-portable guided missile better. RR were replaced in the US and UK 20 years ago by TOW and Swingfire, missiles with 4000m range and a split launch and sustainer motor giving a lower launching signature. At the same time, the Russians adopted Sagger and Swatter. "perhaps for modern armies fighting modern armies." Which is why you haven't seen large recoilless rifles in use in the US or UK forces for 20 years. If you make a habit of fighting the low quality armies - or hope you will - then a bolt action rifle might suffice; but its not a weapon of choice.
 
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IsoT    Isot & single shot   3/26/2004 12:50:21 AM
Well It doesn't really help you that you see the plume as they have already fired. then youa re unfortunately in the recieving end of the package.. Not a big deal if you are riding in brand new tank, but with APC/MICW type of vehicle you are dead.
 
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andyf    RE:Recoilless Rifles rocket definition.?   5/8/2004 2:15:39 PM
id say a rocket was something that had a sustainer motor, ie the engine was firing and acceleration the weapon after it left the launcher
 
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