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Subject: Bullpup or conventional?
MuN    1/21/2004 10:22:11 AM
Many nation's armies have turned to replace their assualt rifle with bullpup rifles. I am not a great fan of bullpup rifles. My country's army have decided to replace the M-16 with a bullpup rifle. The SAR-21 link Friends in the army told me that the SAR-21 is an excellent rifle, and more reliable than the M-16. But i still think that it is VERY important for a rifle to remain 100% ambidextrous at all times. A rifle like the FN2000 should be an excellent choice, instead of a conventional bullpup configuration like the SAR-21. What do you all think?
 
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joe6pack    RE:Bullpup or conventional?   1/23/2004 4:20:46 PM
"And no, infantry dont always find themselves surrounded by IFVs, Apaches, and Arty. There are times when you find yourself in small groups without good coordination and have no one else to rely on." Preach on brother! absolutely correct. If the Hummers stops - get out and move (don't stay in it) If its hauling ass cross country or on rough roads your aren't going to come close to hitting anything using anything less than a MK19 or mini gun.. The M249 is an excellent weapon... Not sure what they are thinking either.. if they really are thinking about replacing it..
 
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shawn    RE:Bullpup or conventional?   1/24/2004 8:21:50 AM
I'm not sure what the US Army is thinking with regards to a SAW M8. From my own experience with a similar weapon, the Ultimax 100, I can tell you that 100 round drums are really difficult to load. We tended to keep them in their ammo pouches until needed, and used standard 30 round magazines for mobility. Speaking of drum mags, I've seen pictures of the SAW version of the new Chinese QBZ-95 bullpup. It looks really akward with a drum magazine. link
 
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Question    RE:Bullpup or conventional?   1/24/2004 9:40:40 AM
Gee MuN,this is like the 2nd thread you made about singapore stuff. Concidentally,its also the exact same topic that i did a few weeks back.
 
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shawn    RE:Bullpup or conventional?   1/24/2004 1:01:32 PM
His third on Singapore stuff, actually. He posted one on the SAR-21, one on the Primus, and one on the NFR fighter contest. I'm surprised he didn't post a topic on the Delta frigates as well... ;)
 
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MuN    RE:Bullpup or conventional?   1/24/2004 2:27:17 PM
Hahhah....arh well, just wanted to know more about the stuff my army is doing. Anyways, one tend to try to find things to occupy himself when he is stuck with 4 weeks MC cos of a training accident........
 
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MuN    RE:Bullpup or conventional?   1/24/2004 2:30:28 PM
Question. Oh yar, i sort of realised that i repeated the subject when i posted the topic. Hahahh....
 
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shawn    RE:Bullpup or conventional?   1/25/2004 11:43:39 AM
Well, hope you have a smooth recovery.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Bullpup or conventional?   1/25/2004 12:11:48 PM
>>Barrel length is neccesary for velocity and therefore range. << Velocity is also necessary to ensure lethality from 5.56mm ammunition, so there is merit, in the specifc case of 5.56mm, in a long-barreled but compact format like a FAMAS or an L85.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Bullpup or conventional?   1/25/2004 12:29:18 PM
>>Carbines are not the way forward for general use - the US found this one out the hard way in Afganistan, where their M4s just weren't accurate at enough at the longer ranges they often found themselves dealing with.<< Finding out that the original M16s were not especially reliable with the original military issue ammunition in Southeast Asia in the mid-1960s was "the hard way." Experience in Afghanistan, where selected personnel used M4s or M203A1s in infantry units (outside of SOCOM, the M16 remains the primary American small arm), was not especially the "hard way." The Afghan experience, as also learned by the Soviets, was that in certain environments (i.e. deserts and barren mountains) are such that a bolt-action .303 Lee Enfield has a certain degree of utility vis a vis a modern assault rifle firing a lighter cartridge. In that setting, L85A2 with SUSAT does not deliver the mail any better than an M16A4 with optics -- the 5.56mm round just doesn't have the legs for shooting in the high desert, and the situation calls for platoon and squad level designated marksmans rifles, or even bolt-action sniper rifles, to provide precision fire alongside 7.62mm GPMGs and on-call artillery, mortar, and air support. Units made do, succeeded, and learned their lessons -- in the case of 101st Airborne, this was evident in their deployment to Iraq with M14 based DMRs for long-range fire.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Bullpup or conventional?   1/25/2004 12:36:30 PM
>>Analysis of many wars shows that infantry mostly have to shoot just up to 200/300 m. << If I am not mistaken, it was analysis of UF forces in World War 2 that established the 300 meter/yard figure -- conscript forces fighting in generally well-vegetated or urban terrain. A generation earlier in WW1, conscript and professional forces firing across man-made moon-scapes tended to engage at rather longer ranges (the long-range precision gunnery of long-service British forces early in the war coming to mind immediately). It should come as absolutely no suprise to anyone that professional soldiers fighting in another open environment favoring long range engagements like the Iraqi desert of Afghan mountains find the 300 meter barrier a hindrance rather than a help. The Soviets encountered the same thing in the same environment twenty years earlier.
 
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