stopping power

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Pete S RE:stopping power 4/27/2002 10:06:19 PM

Semper Fi, Mac! I'm not sure who you are replying to, but you are confirming the main points: it takes good, solid hits to the central nervous system or the heart area to anchor an enemy. Unless the legs or pelvis is broken, the off- center hits may not stop him. When a person is in full "fight or flight" mode, and pumped on adrenaline or other drug, they can frequently shrug off multiple hits, until weakened by blood loss. History is full of accounts of soldiers who fought on after receiving mortal wounds. Think about what you might have to do if your teammates are endangered. Also the importance of being confident and pro- ficient with your weapons--there are a lot of pro's out there who think the 9mm is tops. I'll keep my .45, also (and my M14). Oo-rah!

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Joe Trenchfoot RE:stopping power 4/30/2002 3:15:17 AM

I agree

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RESERVA120@HOTMAIL.COM RE:stopping power 5/1/2002 4:52:02 PM

THIS IS ABOUT RIGHT ON IN TONE,GIVE A REALIBLE GAILI IN 223AND MAGS(OFTEN OVER LOOKED)LEAVE THE SINPERS TO THE BIGGER STUFF, THE ONLY THING THAT I CAME UPON AS A PROBLEM WITH THE 223 WAS NOT ASKING THE BAD GUY IF IT HURT ENOUGH OR HOW HE FELT ABOUT THE HYDROSHOCK-VALUE, BUT THAT OF REAL WORLD ITEMS,DOORS SMALL WALLS CARS(AS COVER) THAT SORT OF THING,OTHER THAN THAT I'VE NO PROBLEM WITH THE 223 AS A COMBAT ROUND( I'M NOT A HUNTER AND THAT'S NOT WHAT WERE TALKING ABOUT)...I OWN A VERY NICELY MADE KIMBER (CUSTOM)1911-45 AND LOVE THE WAY IT FEELS AND SHOOTS,BUT IN THE FIELD I CARRY A GLOCK, IN THE 45CAL, AS IT IS A BETTER DELIVERY SYSTEM FOR THE 45CAL IN THE MUD&RAIN. SO I GUESS WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE MOST WHEN SHOOTING AT BAD GUYS( ASIDE FROM THE TRAINING&MEN)IS HOW WELL THE WEAPONS HOLD UP UNDER FIELD USE,MORE ROUNDS OVER LESS,MORE IS BETTER,ANYTHING OVER 400MM IS SOMEONE ELSE PROBLEM,SO JUST SHOOT TILL THEN,AND YES IT'S NICE TO HAVE THE 7.69MM GUYS AROUND TO CHEW THOUGH THINGS, AND A MARK19 IS YOUR WORST NIGHTMARE COME TRUE,MAKES BEING A GROUND-POUNDER NOT FUN NOT FUN AT ALL.........ALLAN

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blofeld RE:stopping power 3/9/2003 1:34:49 AM

Muzzle velocity turns out to have a critical effect on the stopping power of 5.56 bullets. See Martin Fackler's seminal work: link Above about 2700 fps the SS-109 will fragment and create very impressive wounds. Below that velocity it will simply tumble, and not create as impressive wounds. The combination of the shorter M4 barrels and heavier SS-109 bullets has reduced the range at which 5.56mm bullets will reliably fragment. See link for details. From a 14.5" M4 barrel the fragmentation range is about 50m with SS-109 ammo. That compares to about 150m with a 20" barrel, or 200m for a 20" barrel shooting the Vietnam-era 55gr bullet. The modern M855 62 grain bullet also exhibits more variation in fragmentation compared to the earlier 55 gr M193.

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Final Historian RE:stopping power 3/9/2003 4:34:06 AM

Stopping power is only absolutely necessary when pistols and shotguns are concerned, because of the range. Both are for fights where you can see the whites of their eyes, and when you are that close you need to be able to put a man down with one shot. The .45 round does that, 9mm doesn't. It is true that the actual traume done by a 9mm round is greater, so in the end it is more likely to kill. But that isn't as important as incapacitating the target long enough to get in a good second shot that keeps them down. For anything over 50 yards, stopping power isn't as important. A wounded enemy at that range can get up from a .45 just as he could a 9mm. True, the .45 would knock him down harder, but at that range the ability to exploit the knock down is low. The lethality difference between the 7.62mm and 5.56 mm is not that great, the original tumbler 5.56 was probably better, as the target would be in more pain and thus be less combat capable. But the problem then becomes punching power. Someone hiding behinda half way decent barrier could be safe from 5.56mm bullets, but 7.62 would have enough punch to get to him. Of course, in an urban combat situation, lower penetration might be advantageous, as it would produce less friendly fire. Its a tought choice to make, I am still not sure which is better overall.

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mustavaris RE:stopping power 3/10/2003 3:17:12 AM

As far as I know the problem has been the fact that they (soldiers in Afghanistan) are facing fanatics who are well-prepared for dying- they must be knocked off with the bullet or they try to kill you- you gotta be able to drop them down before they kill you and while they dont care about themselves the 1-2s delay in incapacitation can be and is crucial. In ordinary combat its not so necessery to kill instantly if distances are long enough as mentioned before. I cannot say for sure if I remember this absolutely correctly but I read a book on wartime wounds and lethality and the statistics* show that more than 75% of the KIA were able to fight (or run or hide etc) at least 10 seconds after being mortally hit and less than 2% lost instantly their capability to fight. * WWII and after that.

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Heorot RE:stopping power 3/10/2003 5:19:59 AM

This is not new. During the Falklands war, an SAS detatchment equipped with M16's assaulted a farm full of Argentinian marine commandos. One Argentinian shot an SAS trooper with a 7.62 FN and he went straight down. It took 3 body hits from an M16 on the Argie before he realised that he had been was shot and despite that, he was still shooting. After that action some of that detachment re-equipped themselves with liberated FN's. They felt that the value of the extra stopping power outweighed the extra weight.

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macawman RE:stopping power 3/10/2003 9:25:34 PM

For MOUT the infantry should use the 9 shot Remington shotgun. Rifles are field weapons, for fighting in building or other close confines for stopping power buck shot and or slugs will instantly drop any druged up fanatic even if he is wearing body armour just make sure your wearing hearing protection.

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Heorot RE:stopping power 3/11/2003 12:15:33 AM

You wouldn't want to give a whole unit shotguns, You would need some longer range weapons to use against snipers etc. But for house to house, shotguns fit the bill. One legal problem though. I think that slugs would be against the Geneva convention. The would probably be considered as bullets, and bullets must be fully jacketed, in rifles at least. Does anyone know for sure?

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mustavaris RE:stopping power 3/11/2003 2:03:35 AM

Finland is thought to be very keen on Geneva stuff and at least our counter-special force and MP units use shotguns.. And so I think that they are legal- they have been used in many conflicts after WWI so I dont think that they are illegal- at least practically all armies use them and no one cares about the "problem". Other case is the fact that they have little use the enemy uses armour and distances are greater than 30m so they are useful only in assaults when distances are short. Shotguns have quite a variety of possible ammunition including HE, CS, ILLUM, smoke etc- and they widen the area of possible use. Even in urban fights distances mostly exceed efficient shotgun range and we find out that there�s no ideal weapon for everything- such would be a shotgun or submachinegun in assaults, short-barrel assaultrifle in urban fights and normal one in rural areas.. Maybe this is why SFs have used shotguns under their assault rifles and had a pistol in their possession?

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macawman RE:stopping power 3/12/2003 11:58:48 PM

Note: The effective kill range of a shotgun is extended 10 meters with a 10 guage shotgun with 3 inch shells beyond the 30 meter effective kill range of a 12 guage. The big drawback is the increased bulk and weight of a 10 guage weapon makes it impractical MOUT use. But what amazing kenetic energy from personal weapon for that distance.

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Final Historian RE:stopping power 3/13/2003 3:46:39 AM

I agree that stopping power is critical when you are fighting up close, I believe I mentioned that rifles were effect past 50 yards, more like 50 feet in real life. Under that distance though you want large, heavy rounds to knock someone down and keep them down. A .45 round is ideal, a sub machine gun that fires it would be ideal, large clip size, fast rate of fire, and stopping fire. 9mm rounds do more trauma, but they don't shock enough. Neither do newer 5.56 mm rounds. The original ones tumbled and did a lot of damage, and this had a similar incapacitatin effect, but the newer rounds don't cut it. Its a tough call on what to pick.

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fred79 RE:stopping power 3/13/2003 10:54:08 PM

a correctly equipted shotgun can kill out to 80m especially with the new jacketed sabot rounds. and the 5.56 has virtually no penetrating capability through different layers of mass. a study was done and found that through wall board and 2x4 the 5.56 would only penatrate 1 in the same study 9mm and .45 caliber handgun round were found to penetrate multiple layer of wallboard 2x4's and concrete block. The 5.56 round has a problem at long ranges. between 50-300 yards it is ballistically very effiecent for a soldier since it requires little though about aiming that was the problem with the m-14 and the m1 garrand it requires the individual to guess the range and ajust the gun. history has shown range can make a differenc whenthe marine first got to france in WW1 they were engaging germans at 700yrds. but we will assume that since we are more modern than that and are using vehicle to close that range that eliminates the need for long range shooting. the next thing is the stopping power of the 5.56 round unfortunatly it doesn't have great stopping power, but in normal combat against normal people that is not that necesarry since the goal of the infantry soldier is to not kill other soldier bu tto would them depending on the moral of the enemy to care for thier woulnded taking active soldiers off the field in order to take the woulnded from the field. in close combat it is necessar though to stop enemys almost instantly unfortunatly it is impossible to develope a single weapon to do all the roles at this time. The only way i can see to deveelope a system that would do as many roles as possible is to use a single large barrel and multiple types of amunition. unfortunatly this would require a great deal more training that would cost more and require more intelligent soldier in the infantry. the best weapon i can imagine would be based on a shotgun useing a smooth barrel but with a different action allowing use of clips the problem is the size of the clips to use a large caliber like a 12g. it would require large heavy clips or a new type of system that could reduce the lenght of the shell a great deal until a system like that could be found i don't think it is likely to have a universaly effective gun. until then we will have to use tactics to maximise the m-16.

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macawman RE:stopping power 3/14/2003 12:56:10 PM

The problem with accuracy with the early M-16A1s,5.56 in hitting a distant target beyond 150 yds were crosswinds of over 10 mph. In the 80's the Army went to a heavier 5.56 bullet, thanks to the Marines and the A2 rifle. The sweet thing about the 5.56 is its almost flat trajectory out to 300yds. Crosswinds are not a significant factor with the M-14,7.62 but at 300yds+ the bullet drops over a foot. Combat sight in was at 300yds and aimed at the head at 500yds for body hits. Aimed at the bottom of the target at 50yds. I bet the range and accuracy of the Springfield 03 with a capable rifleman behind it was something of a surprise to the Germans in WW I.

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fred79 RE:stopping power 3/14/2003 10:23:32 PM

I know a man who won a stock class three gun shoot with a 1903 springfield with bayonet,1911 handgun and a model 95 shotgun. he carried ap round to defeat targets behind walls and used teh bayonet for close kills. beat alot of guys with ar-15's and FAL's.

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