World War 2 US and German infantry tactics

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dirtykraut 1/18/2008 4:53:36 PM

Much of this was because the Germans, not great artillerymen themselves, didn't understand how artillery could be used so effectively.

You do realise the German army fought in WWI? It is simply not true to suggest they "didn't understand how artillery could be used effectively".

Germany however, was not ready for war in 1939. They had insufficient war-stocks to defend an allied counter-offensive after Poland for instance, while they only had Panzer I's and II's in numbers at the start of the war. They also were lacking in suitable artillery. This was why they focussed their doctrine on the Stuka and dive bombing to provide CAS in place of artillery support.

By the time America was heavily engaged in he ETO on the continent, German air-cover was not sufficient to provide air-superiority for their Stukas.

"You do realise the German army fought in WWI?" No, yimmy, I had absolutely no idea. The Brits, the French and the Russians mobilized millions of men just for the hell of it. Like the moon landings, WW1 never happened.....

On a more serious note, I never said the Germans couldn't use artillery effectively, just that they did not understand how it could be used as effectively as it was by the allies. (hence the so before effectively). The performance of German artillery in WW2 was abysmal, and it may very well be because they lacked suitable artillery, or preferred the Stukas to provide CAS rather than use artillery, but you cannot deny that the Germans did not use artillery to their advantage in the war. The reasons you explain does not change this fact. People are always quick to point out deficincies in the US Army in whatever era, but God forbid that the mighty Wehrmacht wasn't perfect.

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ker Thanks 1/19/2008 5:50:16 PM

Than you to every one who posted.

RichardW U.S. WWII Rifle Squad. was particularly good. Dose anyone have that kind of information about German practice through Dunkirk. Particularly paratroopers and snipers.

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Yimmy 1/19/2008 10:37:30 PM

No, yimmy, I had absolutely no idea.

Yeah that's what I gathered given your thoughts on the German understanding of artillery.

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earlm For What it's worth 1/19/2008 11:07:28 PM

My grandfather was a platoon leader in the 101st airborne. He told me he would go with a BAR man he trusted and the two of them would scout and sometimes engage the Germans. He told me he left the other guys behind because they were too noisy and the two of them were the best shots. The two of them captured 17 Germans in Holland and killed two dozen in a similar situation at Bastogne after they heard about Malmedy. I think the official tactics that are written about were not the ones always used.

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dirtykraut 1/20/2008 4:21:48 PM

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Yimmy 1/20/2008 9:37:53 PM

Ah but I am splitting hairs!

My point concerning the German understnding of the use of artillery was more on the thinking of them being on the recieving end of it. :)

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Nasty German Idiot 1/21/2008 9:24:00 AM

Yimmy, not to split hairs here, but what is wrong with pointing out the fact that German artillery in the second world war was far from perfect, and that the allies, particularly the US, made better use of it? Of course they had their reasons not to do so. The US had their reasons for putting the then primitive air to air missile as the only offensive weapon of the F-4 Phantom in Vietnam before 1968. That doesn't mean it was the right decision.
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You again see the whole War just from your little American Perspective, from 1943 on. The Second World War started in 1939, and not just with the American involvement in it. By the point the first American Soldier fired the first shot on a German in WW2, the German Army had already lost 2 million men and 1/2 of its equipment. And even then, when American Units landed in Africa, they were completely green and got pounded by Rommel and his "unable" artillery. Even when German Artillery was outnumbered and without proper supplies, they beat the shit out of the Allies. In Normandy the situation was much worse concerning the ratio, Artillery becomes pretty obsolete if the enemy has complete air superiority and will strike at any Artillery position.

The German weakness was never Artillery but Airforce. That goes especially for most scenarios and battlefields discussed in this thread.

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Herald12345 For what its worth...... 1/21/2008 9:46:05 AM

If the Hurtgen Forest and the Vosges is any criteria by which to judge, the US infantry thought the German artillery was quite effective enough.

Herald

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Tancred 1/21/2008 9:52:06 AM

Speaking from a slightly wider British perspective. German artillery was comparatively second rate from about 1916 on, not by a lot but it was. WWII german artillery (41 on in particular) was in terms of equipment a design cycle behind UK/US and Russian especially US who had some magnificent kit. Rather more to the point its doctrine was comparatively overcentralised and from say late 43 and surely 44 on grossly inferior in practice to UK/US because of Allied air supremacy enabling spotting. They were also kinda short on ammunition, again comparatively.

Compared with Soviet practise they were better but really only in fluid situations whenever the Red army got into any sort of static situation within 2/3 days they could begin to establish a stronger base of fire and overwhelm with numbers.

3/4 days of a good attacks aganst green troops making a minor tactical advance and getting basically bounced back to the start line does not count as a pounding.

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Nasty German Idiot 1/21/2008 10:02:48 AM

If the Hurtgen Forest and the Vosges is any criteria by which to judge, the US infantry thought the German artillery was quite effective enough.

Herald

Same goes for the Ardennes, as I said when the Allied Airforces were not able to strike effectively (Hürtgenwald is one of the deepest forests in Germany, with steep cliffs and mountains) and were unable to counter the German Artillery fire, it was as effective as the Allied Artillery.

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