US Army training seems to be wanting by comparison to US Marine training

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Subject: US Army training seems to be wanting by comparison to US Marine training
ZealousZionist 6/5/2007 6:41:09 AM

Speaking as an interested allied observer (IDF infantry officer) it seems to me - admittedly from the outside - that the USMC has a more rigorous training regime for infantry MOSs than the US Army. Let me assure my American friends that I mean this with the utmost respect. We face the same enemies - jihadi Islam. I am thus asking this question in the best of faith. Every marine recruit does 13 weeks of boot camp, while army recruits do only 9. Marine grunts then go on to do another 7 weeks infantry training at SOI - a total of 20 weeks training - while army OSUT is only 14 weeks long. The Marines also break down infantry squad tasks, alloting a distinct MOS to AT missilmen, machine gunners, assaultmen, mortarmen and riflemen. In the Army the only distinction is between riflemen and mortarmen. And the same seems to be said for the sniper schools - the Army course is 5 weeks in length while Marine scout-sniper training extends over 10 weeks. Why does Army training seem to be so much less rigorous? Why is this so? There is much to be said for concentrating training at purpose-built centralised schools rather than in units. At schools the quality-control is much easier to maintain, while there is inevitably substantial variation between the operational and training levels of combat units. And what happens when an army infantryman is assigned to a unit just a couple of weeks away from deployment to a combat zone? Given my personal experience with how militaries work (personnel wonks are the same in any army) I'm sure that has happened in the US Army. Doesn't that shortchange all concerned.. the half-baked grunt and his fellows by creating a weak link in the unit. So help me please to understand the thinking here, because I don't get it. US Army officers are intelligent and well educated. There must be a rationale for this. But it sure has escaped me.

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Horsesoldier 6/6/2007 3:42:34 PM

""I am of the opinion that the corps has the finest training program in the world for snipers""

My opinion is that the French/German sniper training is the finest .

Cheers .

Level One SOTIC is the best sniping program in the US military, superior to both the (conventional) Army and USMC schools. But, again, it's just a school. Neither it nor the USMC school nor anyone else turn out expert snipers, same as infantry traiining programs don't turn out expert infantrymen. They turn out guys who now have the basic skill set they need to perform the job. It will subsequently take additional training outside the school house to become a truly proficient sniper, same as with infantrymen, again.

As for where sniping programs stack up internationally . . . that's one of those "my country's tougher than your country" arguments I won't get into.

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dirtykraut 6/6/2007 4:12:47 PM

I have to agree with you Horsesoldier, that the initial program only gives one the basic foundation, which he will later build upon in training within his unit. I don't know much about the target interdiction course, but it seems like it would be only 1 of the jobs SOF personell would perform. An 18B for example, might be trained as a sniper in the SOTIC, but he still has the responsibilities of an 18B. Whereas snipers and scout snipers solely concentrate on sniping after the initial training program. I had always thought that for SOF personell sniping was just one of many skills he is supposed to have, and cannot concentrate full time on sniping. I could be wrong though, I am not exactly qualified to say anything but the most basic and accessible facts on SOF units.

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Bluewings12 6/6/2007 5:14:14 PM

""blue you are full of it hehe.""

No , lol ! I "ve just stated my opinion . Maybe I 'm wrong ...

Cheers .

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ZealousZionist piece in the Atlantic magazine has me worried 6/7/2007 5:24:14 AM

As a matter of fact, the June issue of the <i>Atlantic</i> magazine has a feature piece on how the US Army has watered down infantry OSUT at Benning.

<i>The Marines have a somewhat easier time recruiting; this is partly because they have religiously maintained their elite status, drawing many who want to see if they are good enough for the Corps, and partly because the Marines, as the smallest service branch outside the Coast Guard, need the fewest bodies. But the Army doesn’t have the luxury of selectivity in filling its expanded rolls. It needs 80,000 new soldiers this year and must find them in a populace that is in many ways less willing and less able to serve than earlier generations were. Young people are fatter and weaker. They eat more junk food, watch more television, play more video games, and exercise less. They are more individualistic and less inclined to join the military. And with the unemployment rate hovering near historic lows, they have other choices...

The Army has made sweeping changes in the basic combat training that every recruit must go through...The Army’s answer to these questions, for now, is to offer its recruits a less hostile environment that won’t scare off as many people or make them quit: less shouting, less running, more encouragement, more understanding.</i>

This piece was written by a recently discharged Army grunt who just finished a four year hitch.

It is in the interests of the preservation of liberty that the United States armed forces be as combat effective as possible. But I must confess that this article leaves me a bit worried.

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dirtykraut 6/7/2007 2:11:10 PM

Infantry OSUT has definately not been watered down. The people going through OSUT today have it harder than I did, and are learning things I didn't learn for a long time. I know that people have been saying basic training at Jackson has been watered down, and that may be true. The article you are reading may be about that. Quite frankly though, the only thing that has changed in basic in Jackson is that DS's don't yell as much, and they are not allowed to swear. They still run a lot. I read an article that I largely agree with about the "softeneing" of basic training. It said that people have been saying this for the past 50 years. The only difference is the army has become more politically correct and they try to instill confidence instead of breaking the recruits down, something other armies have been doing for years. The same standards in AIT are still required, and if people aren't running their 2 miles in 15:54 in AIT, they take a hike. I hardly believe recruits are less fit than they were 20 years ago, perhaps a little bit due to the internet and what not. Even if they were, it's nothing 9 weeks of basic can't change. Here is the article I read: http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyjoin/a/basicinterview.htm

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ZealousZionist The piece was about infantry OSUT 6/7/2007 4:51:22 PM

The article was about infantry OSUT at Benning, written by a 10th Mountain Div. alum who just finished a four-year hitch in 2006. He went back to Fort Drum and spoke to his old first sergeant, who told the author that over the past couple of years the level of incoming OSUT graduates had declined markedly. And that this was directly attributable to watered-down training.

Have a look here:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200706/mockenhaupt-army

I hope you are right.... but....

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dirtykraut 6/7/2007 8:56:49 PM

Incoming OSUT graduates have declined? Wouldn't that mean it would be the opposite of watered down training? If less people are graduating OSUT, wouldn't it mean that it might be harder? I hardly think 1 Sargeant who served 4 years in the tenth is qualified to speak on the declining quality of OSUT graduates for the whole army. But what you have to realise, zionist, is that people have been saying this throughout the army's history. Like it said in the article I posted, everyone you meet who was there a year before you said they were in the last hard basic training. OSUT hasn't watered down, like it said in the article, Jackson and OSUT have gotten smarter. I only left the army 2 and a half years ago, and I was very impressed with the quality of the E-1s coming out of OSUT. I doubt that has changed in such a short time. The changes they made to boot and OSUT were in 2004, when I was still in. Sure, there will always be some who disagree, but the vast majority of NCO's feel that OSUT is a more than adequate foundation for our infantry soldiers.

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dirtykraut 6/7/2007 9:01:23 PM

There was a private who wrote a diaree about OSUT a while back. I'll try and find it.

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atokato 9/8/2009 1:20:32 AM

to both of you and other readers of this forum - it does not matter who has the extensive and hardest training - you can not keep comparing the U S Army and the U S Marine training - at the end of the day they are both in one TEAM and both are needed - the Armed Forces of the United States - just like any other branches of the service. There maybe a difference on how each branches of the services trained their unit/individual but this is based on how the Chain of Command works and how they have to be mobilized based on contingencies on hand - but it is every ones individaul effort that counts - if one individual do not perform - one of the Team Member steps in either to encourage or motivate that individual to become part of the TEAM - so at the end of the day when Uncle Sams call - we all have to depend our Mother Land as a TEAM and not one branch of the service only - it is not only the Marine that made the landing in Guadacanal succesful nor it is not only the U S Army landing in Normandy that made it possible - every branch of the Armed Forces of America took part on this conflict and so us the recent conflict in the Middle East - all the branches of the service are involved - So it does not matter who have the hardest or most conflicated training all branches of the Service are needed - and to those who served this country. the country owes you just as you owe this country. and please stop making the other TEAMMATE look bad and with negative comments, we are all here to depend this country with PRIDE. remember the old saying DUTY, HONOR AND COUNTRY.

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