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Subject: Little Bullets Lose Respect
James Dunnigan    12/1/2005 11:48:43 PM




The U.S. Army?s cancellation of the XM8 (a
replacement for the M16) reflects disenchantment with the 5.56mm round, more
than anything else. While the 5.56mm bullet was OK when used in an automatic
weapon, it is much less useful when you have so many troops who know how to
shoot, and can hit targets just as easily with single shots. In addition to
better shooting skills, the troops also have much better sights, both for day
and night use. It?s much more effective to fire less often, if you have troops
who can do that and hit what they are shooting at with the first shot. Most
American troops can.



Moreover, the 5.56mm round is less effective in urban fighting, where you often
want to shoot through doors and walls. The 5.56mm round is not as effective at
doing this as is the heavier 7.62mm bullet. And the troops have plenty of
7.62mm weapons available, in order to compare. There is the M240 medium
machine-gun. While this 7.62mm weapon is usually mounted on vehicles, it is
often taken off and used by infantry for street fighting. Lots of 1960s era
7.62mm M14 rifles have also been taken out of storage and distributed. While
used mainly as sniper rifles, the snipers do other work on the battlefield as
well, and the troops have been able to see that the heavier 7.62mm round does a
better job of shooting through cinder block walls, and taking down bad guys
with one shot. Too often, enemy troops require several 5.56mm bullets to put
them out of action. 



In a situation like that, it makes more sense to carry a heavier round. The
question is, which one? The army has been experimenting with a 6.8mm round, but
now some are demanding that the full size 7.62mm round be brought back. There
are M16 type weapons that use the full size 7.62mm round (and the lower powered
AK-47 7.62mm round). The new SOCOM SCAR rifle can quickly be adapted to using
all of the above by swapping out the barrel and receiver. Could be that the
army is going to wait and see what SOCOM decides to do.



The other big complaint about the M16 is it?s sensitivity to fine dust, as
found in Iraq and, to a lesser extent, Afghanistan. This stuff causes the rifle
(and the light machine-gun version, the M249), to jam. Troops have to be
cleaning these weapons constantly. Another problem with the M249 is that most
of the ones in service are very old, and in need of a replacement (with new
M249s, or a new weapon design.) The XM8 solved much of the ?dust sensitivity?
problem, but part of the problem was the smaller round.



A decision on the army?s new assault rifle will probably come sooner, rather
than later, because the troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan are making a
lot of Internet noise over the issue.



 
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Action Ferret    RE:Little Bullets Lose Respect    12/2/2005 3:41:40 PM
You can't beat a good old 7.62, the bad guys never get up, when they are hit by these. The down side is weight, of round, but then again, if you are running round with a GPMG, who cares about weight.
 
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EW3    RE:Little Bullets Lose Respect    12/2/2005 8:41:04 PM
The other issue is killing power at distance. The current wars are being fought where you often have a longe range shot and the extra heft of the bigger weapon/round is helpfull. The M-16 was designed for short distance fire fights, the M4 even more so. I used to carry a 21" 12 Ga with 00 buck. But would never think of carrying it in the current situations.
 
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Action Ferret    RE:Little Bullets Lose Respect    12/3/2005 8:45:09 AM
If you want to make the bad guys really dance, hit them with a trace round.
 
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Alter Mann    RE:Little Bullets Lose Respect    12/3/2005 6:11:29 PM
What has changed in marksmanship training? I served in the Marines, 1968-71 and 1983-92, and in the Army, 1974-79. Even in the Marines I was surprised at the number of people who never shot higher than Marksman. I didn't either 1986-71. I can understand the sights making a big difference, but it seems to me that a little more would be necessary to replace the 'spray' firing technique. The 3-round burst mode of the M-16A2 made some sense to me, if the flash suppressor was slightly modified. I agree that the 5.56 is of limited usefulness, but I also remember the M-14 kicking the Hell out of me during firing. Of course I had never fired a weapon before that. I'm still not sure that a medium round, like the 7.62 Russian, doesn't have a place. But that opens up the whole 'all purpose weapon' controversy.
 
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Alter Mann    RE:Little Bullets Lose Respect    12/3/2005 6:13:05 PM
Oh, I almost forgot. It is unsportsmanlike to shoot people with tracers from a weapon that is not 'crew-served'.
 
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mcgredo    RE:Little Bullets Lose Respect    12/4/2005 12:00:45 AM
A lot of the problem is shorter barrels. The old M16A1 had a 20" barrel, and that plus the old 55 grain bullet got the velocity high enough to cause it to fragment on impact with a body. The M4 has only a 14.5" barrel, and the bullet is at "fragmentation velocity" for only about the first 75-100 meters. The XM-8 would have been a disaster; the most commonly used variant would have had only a 12.5" barrel, which would have retained fragmentation velocity out to only 25-50 meters. Stopping power would have been terrible. The 6.8 SPC is designed to fragment in the target's body even when fired from short-barreled weapons. Since everyone wants shorter weapons these days--lots of piling in and out of vehicles--the 5.56 isn't a very good choice. The prevalance of urban combat is another good reason to go to SPC. Lots of shooting at cars instead of VC in black jammies. The full-house .308 is overkill.
 
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ssfeldjager    RE:Little Bullets Lose Respect    12/4/2005 3:06:04 PM
Mcgredo said: "The full-house .308 is overkill." References? Explanation?
 
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Alter Mann    RE:Little Bullets Lose Respect    12/4/2005 7:58:47 PM
Following McGredo's reasoning, the current requirement is for something that isn't cumbersome, but converts a lot kinetic energy when it hits something. A .308 requires a fairly heavy action and would require a relatively long barrel in order to just keep muzzle flash down with standard 7.62mm NATO cartridges. The 7.62x51 cartridge is also fairly heavy and bulky for the results that it produces, when compared to some of the other options.
 
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