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Subject: Just How Effective Is the F-22
James Dunnigan    11/20/2005 10:29:29 PM




With the F-22 finally entering service, there
is still a lot of debate over whether the aircraft is worth the cost (about
$400 million each, including the enormous development costs, about $100 million
each without.) About five years ago, the British Defence Evaluation and
Research Agency did a rather extensive, and still largely classified, study
using pilots flying aircraft simulators tuned to represent the characteristics
of various aircraft. The pilots used the weapons and tactics of each nation.
The benchmark was how many Su-35s (the advanced Russian warplane,  then in
development, based on the Su-27) that would be lost for each friendly aircraft.
China, India and Russia use the Su-27, and advanced models of it.



The results of this study were; 



U.S. F-22 10.1 : 1 (10.1 Su-35s lost for each F-22)



European Typhoon 4.5 : 1



French Rafale 1.0 : 1



Russian Su-35 1.0 : 1



U.S. F-15C 0.8 : 1



U.S. F-18D 0.4 : 1



U.S. F-18C 0.3 : 1



U.S. F-16C 0.3 : 1



These results depend a lot on the quality of radars and missiles and, in the
case of the F-22, the effectiveness of stealth technology. Since most details
of this study remained classified, it?s possible that some factors may not have
been portrayed accurately. Except for a few engagements in the 1991 and 2003
Gulf wars, there have been few opportunities to see modern fighters in action.
In the Gulf wars, the Iraqi pilots were much less well trained than their
American and British counterparts. 



 
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buyer    RE:Just How Effective Is the F-22    12/18/2005 10:09:10 PM
Pretty impressive.. I havn't done the math but it looks as though the Raptor is very cost effective even though it does cost more.
 
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BasinBictory    RE:Just How Effective Is the F-22    12/24/2005 6:37:11 PM
For the forseeable future, the USAF will have the advantage of the most sophisticated fighter in the skies in the F-22. However, the primary component of its effectiveness will be (as it always has been) the intensive pilot training that the USAF has. Since most other aspiring superpowers (namely China and Russia) realize that going head to head with USAF pilots in old-style dogfights is tantamount to suicide, I believe that most of their tactics in any future conflict with the US will be to destroy or otherwise disable the potent fighters (and their crews) by means other than air-to-air combat. SAM's, strikes on the airfields, fuel supplies, and the like. Therefore, it's overall effectiveness will be determined by it's ability to evade and/or survive SAM's, and it's operational durability.
 
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Azmodius    RE:Just How Effective Is the F-22    12/28/2005 5:56:00 PM
I watched a discovery channel special about the F-22 about 2 months ago. May have been National Geo or history, cant remember. Basically they were using F-15 pilots in the F-22 program. The F-15 pilots were saying the F-22 could kill 5 F-15's before they could even see where the raptor was. This was a new TV special compared to the old study mentioned here so maybe something has changed since. Anyone else see this? If this is the case how will China and Russia deal with it besides die? heh heh
 
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BasinBictory    RE:Just How Effective Is the F-22    12/30/2005 4:52:48 AM
I'll bet 25 years ago, they were having this same discussion re: F-15 Eagle versus F-4 Phantom.
 
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PowerPointRanger    RE:Just How Effective Is the F-22    12/30/2005 2:41:40 PM
Actually, I recall reading about a 80's study of new F-15 pilots going against veteran pilots in F-4's and losing consistently. This shows the importance of pilot skill/experience over technology. A good aircraft could be wasted if the pilot doesn't know how to use it. Personally, I'm skeptical of the study (which is a decade old, by the way). I am not skeptical because of the F-22 results, but because it seems to favor European aircraft over US produced aircraft in ways that don't jibe with real-world numbers. The F-15 has a 95-0 real-world kill ratio, yet ranks near the bottom of the study. On top of this, look at some of the aircraft which were excluded: F-18E, F-14D, F-15E, F-35. These are all either more advanced versions of aircraft included in the study or aircraft that would otherwise outperform the Typhoon. In addition, since the study was released, we have learned that the Typhoon's most important capabilities (stealth & supercruise) were more hype than fact. Taken objectively, the Typhoon has capabilities roughly comparable to the F-18 (but at a greater cost).
 
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buyer    RE:Just How Effective Is the F-22    12/30/2005 10:44:44 PM
Until someone comes us with a way to beat the LO technology, no one can touch it. Even if stealth were less effective, the speed, agility and situation awareness would still make it the most effective for at least the next 10 years.
 
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Tomcatter    RE:Just How Effective Is the F-22    1/3/2006 11:13:14 AM
The U.S. is over-rated in terms of the quality of their personel. They are not the best across the board.
 
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BasinBictory    RE:Just How Effective Is the F-22    1/3/2006 3:09:58 PM
True - but I'd rather have 1,000 well-trained, very good pilots, than 50 aces. Few air forces spend as much time and money on training than the USAF, so even if say, the IAF or RAF have squadrons where every last man is the next Richthofen, they're far fewer in number. However, I'd also rather have 50 aces than 10,000 poorly trained peasant crop-dusters, which is what the Chinese and Russian air forces were.
 
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