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Naval Air: China Steals The Abandoned Su-33
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June 7, 2010: For over five years, China has been developing a carrier version of the Russian Su-27, calling it the J-15. There is already a Russian version of this, called the Su-33. Russia refused to sell Su-33s to China, when it was noted that China was making illegal copies of the Su-27 (as the J-11), and did not want to place a big order for Su-33s, but only wanted two, for "evaluation." China eventually got a Su-33 from Ukraine, which inherited some when the Soviet Union dissolved in 1991. The first prototypes of the J-15 have been under construction for two years, and the aircraft is believed to have taken its first flight in the last few months. The Russians are not happy with this development. Russian aviation experts have openly derided the J-15, casting doubt on the ability of Chinese engineers to replicate key features of the Su-33. That remains to be seen, as the Chinese have screwed up copying Russian military tech in the past. But the Chinese have a lot of experience stealing foreign tech, so the J-15 may well turn out to be at least as good as the Su-33. Meanwhile. Russia itself has stopped using the Su-33.

Late last year, the Russian Navy ordered 24 MiG-29Ks (for about $42 million each) to replace the Su-33s currently operating from the aircraft carrier Kuznetsov. It was two years ago that the carrier version of the Russian MiG-29, the MiG-29K, made its first flight, about fifteen years later than originally planned. India is buying 30-40 of these for use on at least two aircraft carriers. The Indians are already receiving the first sixteen. The reason for dropping the Su-33 is the order from India. It's cheaper to build 64 (or more, for planned Russian carriers) MiG-29Ks, than just 16 more Su-33s to replace the ones already on the Kuznetsov (and wearing out). The MiG-29Ks are lighter and cheaper than the Su-33s.

In the early 1990s, work began on creating a variant of the MiG-29 for carrier use. These were to be used on the Kuznetsov class carriers, originally conceived of as 90,000 ton, nuclear powered ships, similar to American carriers (complete with steam catapults). Instead, because of the cost, and the complexity of modern (American style) carriers, the Russians were forced to scale back their goals, and ended up with the 65,000 ton (full load) ships that lacked steam catapults, and used a ski jump type flight deck instead. Nuclear power was dropped, but the Kuznetsov class was still a formidable design. The thousand foot (322 meter) long carrier ended up carryings a dozen Su-33s, 14 Ka-27PL anti-submarine helicopters, two electronic warfare helicopters and two search and rescue helicopters. The ship was designed to carry up to 36 Su-33s and sixteen helicopters.

The 33 ton Su-33 is larger than the 21 ton MiG-29K, and both types of aircraft were to operate from the three 65,000 ton Kuznetsovs. But when the Cold War ended, only the Kuznetsov was near completion. The second ship in the class, the Varyag, was sold to China. The smaller Gorshkov is being rebuilt and sold to India (who believed the smaller MiG-29K was more suitable for this carrier.).

The MiG-29K modifications included arrestor gear and stronger landing gear for carrier landings, folding wings and rust proofing to reduce corrosion from all that salt water. Anti-radar paint is also used, to reduce the radar signature. Fuel capacity was increased 50 percent and more modern electronics installed. A more powerful engine is used, which enabled the aircraft to carry over five tons of weapons (air-to-air and anti-ship missiles, smart bombs).

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DavidE    ski jump vs. steam catapult   6/7/2010 7:55:51 PM
Can some of the experts out there explain to me why steam catapults are preferable to
ski-jumps?  Or why you can't have both together?  Do you generate more sorties with
steam catapults?  If so, why?
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RtWingCon    not an expert, but..   6/7/2010 8:45:15 PM
Don't take my word for it, but it appears the ski-jumps require more deck for launching. When you look at the designs, the deck is straight, so launching aircraft and arresting aircraft can't be done at the same time. When you look at the US modern carriers with catapults, we have the angled deck to arrest aircraft while the front end can still launch aircraft nearly simultaneously arresting incoming aircraft. Some new Russian carriers on the drawing board appear to have an angled deck, but it intersects the ski jump deck, so the problem appears to be still there but maybe lessened. Not an expert, but another observation appears that the US has heavier aircraft to launch and those heavier aircraft may not be able to gain the speed needed for a ski jump.
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AThousandYoung       6/7/2010 11:48:18 PM

A catapult allows a fighter to take off with more ordinance.  Ski jumps tend to be used with smaller carriers flying V/STOL fighters I think.  The Su-33 could not take off with a full load of weaponry off the Kutsenov I don't believe.

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trenchsol       6/8/2010 2:00:10 AM
Iran has a supercavitating torpedo which appear to be a copy of Russian VA111 Shkval. Russia claims that it never sold the technology to Iran.  It turns out that major part of the weapon development took part in Ukraine.

If Ukraine supplied those Sukhoi's to China, they might have supplied the torpedoes to Iran, too....

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maruben    FYI   6/8/2010 12:07:11 PM
China's J-15 carrier-based fighter will not be able to compete with Russia's Su-33 fighter on global markets because it is inferior to the Russian aircraft, a Russian military analyst said on Friday.

China since 2001 has been developing the J-15 naval fighter, which is believed to be a clone of Russia's Su-33 Falcon-D. China bought an Su-33 prototype earlier from Ukraine, and used it to develop the new aircraft.

The J-15 is expected to be stationed initially onboard the Chinese Varyag aircraft carrier currently being fitted in the port of Dalian. China bought the unfinished Admiral Kuznetsov class aircraft carrier from Ukraine in 1998.

"The Chinese J-15 clone is unlikely to achieve the same performance characteristics of the Russian Su-33 carrier-based fighter, and I do not rule out the possibility that China could return to negotiations with Russia on the purchase of a substantial batch of Su-33s," said Col. (Ret.) Igor Korotchenko, a member of the Defense Ministry's Public Council.

The Su-33 is a carrier-based multi-role fighter, which can perform a variety of air superiority, fleet defense, air support and reconnaissance missions. The aircraft entered service with the Russian Navy in 1995 and are currently deployed on board the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier.

Korotchenko said China was unlikely to solve technical problems related to the design of the folding wings and to develop a reliable engine for the aircraft, although the first J-15 prototype reportedly made its maiden flight on August 31, 2009, powered by Chinese WS-10 turbofan engines.

China and Russia had been in negotiations on the sale of the Su-33 Flanker-D fighters to be used on future Chinese aircraft carriers since 2006, but the talks collapsed over China's request for an initial delivery of two aircraft for a "trial."

Russian Defense Ministry sources confirmed that the refusal was due to findings that China had produced its own copycat version of the Su-27SK fighter jet in violation of intellectual property agreements.

In 1995, China secured a $2.5-billion production license from Russia to build 200 Su-27SKs, dubbed J-11A, at the Shenyang Aircraft Corp.

The deal required the aircraft to be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines. Russia cancelled the arrangement in 2006 after it discovered that China was developing an indigenous version, J-11B, with Chinese avionics and systems. The decision came after China had already produced at least 95 aircraft.

Last year, Russia refused again to sell the Su-33 to China even after Beijing had offered to buy 14 of them, saying that at least 24 jets should be sold to recoup production costs.

MOSCOW, June 4 (RIA Novosti)
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Nichevo       6/11/2010 6:10:53 PM
Does anyone understand (cwDeici call your office) whether there is any shame or "loss of face" in China constantly being busted for this sort of thievery?  Is that good Confucian practice?  ISTM this could lead to racial stereotyping" align="absmiddle" border="0" alt="" />
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omi    chinese dilema   7/21/2010 10:31:15 AM

china wants taiwan thats the only use of vargyag and the j15

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Hamilcar       7/21/2010 2:01:19 PM

Can some of the experts out there explain to me why steam catapults are preferable to

ski-jumps?  Or why you can't have both together?  Do you generate more sorties with

steam catapults?  If so, why?

1. Catapults generate > 10x the amount of shove/pull forces as using an inclined ramp to pre-rotate into the climb.
2. The ski-jump robs you of deck park space.
3. The ski-jump makes it impossible for a bolter to do a go-around level. He has to climb on full power  to miss the ramp and THAT is not good when straight and level to transition turn into the go around bank in the landing circuit is what you want. We lose enough pilots and planes to the carrier bow plow (keel hauling the plane after a botched catshot)  as it is.  
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gf0012-aust       7/23/2010 12:40:07 AM

Can some of the experts out there explain to me why steam catapults are preferable to

ski-jumps?  Or why you can't have both together?  Do you generate more sorties with

steam catapults?  If so, why?

don't use as much fuel at launch - hence don't need to refuel as early if needed
don't use as much fuel at launch - hence can carry a complete weapons load at launch without fuel imposition (the carrier-flanker problem)
can form up faster as a group as cycling of launches is faster
can sortie at a higher rate
higher volley rate
don't use as much fuel at launch - hence range extended before AAR required
etc etc.......
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