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Japan Seeks A New Class Of Larger Carriers

September 4, 2009: Japan is now planning a second, larger class of 763 foot long, 25,000 ton aircraft carriers. How can that be? Japan's post-World War II constitution specifically forbids its navy (ah, make that, "Naval Self-Defense Force") from having aircraft carriers. Very simple, Japan has already built two "helicopter-carrying destroyers" that happen to just look like aircraft carriers. A class of "helicopter-carrying cruisers" would apparently keep the constitutional lawyers quiet.

Japan recently launched its second aircraft carrier ( the Ise) since World War II. This past March, it commissioned the first of these ships, the "helicopter-carrying destroyer" Hyuga. These are 610 foot long, 18,000 ton warships that operates up to 11 (mostly SH-60) helicopters from a full length flight deck. Although called a destroyer, it very much looks like an aircraft carrier. While its primary function is anti-submarine warfare, the Hyuga will also give Japan its first real power projection capability since 1945. The Hyuga is the largest warship built in Japan since World War II. The Japanese constitution forbids it to have aircraft carriers, which is the main reason it is called a destroyer. That, and the desire to not make the neighbors anxious. East Asian nations still have bad memories about the last time Japan had lots of aircraft carriers.

The Hyuga also has 16 Mk41 VLS (Vertical Launch System) cells for anti-aircraft and anti-ship missiles. There are also two 20mm Phalanx anti-missile cannon and two triple 12.75-inch torpedo mounts. There is a crew of 350 and a top speed of about 60 kilometers. Vertical takeoff jets like the Harrier and F-35B could also operate from the Hyuga. A third Hyuga class ship is planned.

The last Japanese warship to be called the Hyuga was a World War II battleship that entered service in 1918, and was converted to a hybrid battleship/aircraft carrier in 1943. The new Hyuga will be used for peacekeeping missions as well, and for that role its many helicopters will be most useful. During World War II, there was also a Japanese battleships named Ise, which was the lead ship of a class of ships that also contained the Hyuga. Both were 35,000 ton warships, and both were sunk, in the same week, in late July 1945. The Ise was also rebuilt, during the war, as an aircraft carrier (actually a hybrid battleship/aircraft carrier.)

The Japanese are apparently quite pleased with their new carriers, and much relieved that there was not a worldwide uproar over how they circumvented their own constitution. The Japanese Navy is apparently back in the carrier business, 64 years after the last of their World War II carriers went to the bottom.

 

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Swerve       9/4/2009 10:10:09 AM
I suggest you read the Constitution of Japan. It makes no mention of aircraft carriers.
 
link
 
And here is the current official interpretation of Article 9, which is probably what you're thinking about.
 
link
 
I get tired of this sort of rubbish. Why do so many people feel qualified to comment on the Japanese constitution & defence matters without having read it? It takes seconds to find the official English translation online.
 
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benellim4       9/4/2009 11:58:17 AM
I don't know. My question is how do you project power with an SH-60?
 
These ships remind me more of the USSR's air-capable cruisers than a true carrier.
 
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YelliChink       9/4/2009 4:27:46 PM
What will JMSDF name after the planned flat tops? Akagi and Kaga? Shokaku and Zuikaku? 
 
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maruben    Japanese Government   9/4/2009 5:37:18 PM
The Japanase Government has declared that Hyouga is not a carrier, but just looks like a carrier, does not have any offensive capacity and its main goal is just to be a helicopters transporter.
 
The good news is that girls will be part of the crew. YES!
 
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maruben    Some number   9/4/2009 6:20:33 PM
The japanese newspapers mentions the new ship will be 19,500 tons of displacement. Its length will be about 251 meters and the construction cost included in the 2010 fiscal years is about 1.2 billon dollars (I am not sure if that is the total cost). It can carry 14 helicopters or 50 vehicles or transport 4,000 men. It will operate 5 helicopters at the same time on the deck meanwhile Hyoga can only deal with 3 helicopter. Also, this new ship can work as fuel tanker.
It seems that Japanese maritime self defense force is worry about the Chinese cruise missile warships. I do not know if the Chinese navy has those warships but the Chinese submarines may be the main concerns.
 
 
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cheshirematt       9/4/2009 6:57:15 PM
"I don't know. My question is how do you project power with an SH-60?"
 
I would guess pretty easily, if the other guy doesn't have a carrier to counter you with.
 
With ship vs. ship combat today, odds favor whoever fires the first/the most cruise missiles. With all the cruise-missile boats China seems to have running around that doesn't work out very well for Japan. But if you bring Hyuga/Ise into play, the fight is instead ship vs. helicopter - and a helicopter should beat a missile boat every time (small boats have lousy air defense), and far enough away to keep the mothership out of any real danger.
 
I would think that in naval battles, whoever has the strongest air wing wins... If you've got a dozen helicopters... but the other guy doesn't have anything, then the helis win.
 
And it sounds like these ships can also carry the F-35B, so there's a pretty obvious "upgrade path" if its needed.
 
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benellim4       9/4/2009 7:12:17 PM
If an SH-60 is what is required to "project power" then USN FFGs are power projection tools.

Seriously, just because something looks like a carrier, doesn't mean it is used in the same manner, nor does it mean it has the same capability.
 
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History Buff    Power projection   9/4/2009 8:05:12 PM
How is Japan building its "power projection capabilities"?
 
By buying or building military tools with LONGER RANGE.  You project power by making it possible for your military forces to patrol, surveil, or engage the enemy a substantial distance away from your homeland.
 
During the Clinton Era, Japan came to the conclusion that U.S. umbrella was not a foregone conclusion, so they have started to develop their own long range capabilities to deal with their neighbors and even deal with countries/pirates in other parts of the world.  I'm sure that Obama is not a reassuring sight to the Japanese.
 
Not only has Japan been building a "blue-water" Navy, with long range destroyers and subs, but now with long-range aircraft carri....oops, sorry, I meant "Helicopter Carrying Destroyers".  The newer, bigger class of "Helicopter Carrying Floating Entities" will have both greater range, larger complements of sailors/pilots, and greater munitions capacity.  And let us not forget that Japan's 200 F-15's can now reach North Korea and back, while carrying heavy bomb loads, courtesy of their new KC-767 aerial refueling tankers.  Coincidence?  I don't think so.
 
Oh, let's not forget that Japan can now launch its own military spy and communications satellites....which are also useful for coordinating long-range military operations.  And one of the lessons of the U.S.-Soviet "space race" was that a country that can launch satellites can also launch warheads around the world.  A message that some casual Japan watchers seem to have missed.
 
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LB    JMSDF Organization   9/4/2009 10:06:41 PM
The JMSDF has been organized into 4 escort groups for many years (plus other smaller regional escort groups).  Each group has 8 destroyers of which 1 is helicopter carrying destroyer, 2 are DDG's, and the other 5 are asw destroyers.  The DDH's of the Haruna class were laid down in 1970 and the Shirane class in 1977 and comm in 1980 and 1981.  From a JMSDF perspective these are larger and more capable DDH's in the Hyuga class but more of a natural progression from the original DDH's.
 
The Hyuga class does not look likely to be converted into carrying V/STOL  aircraft like the F-35B.  The follow on class mentioned here of 25,000 tons would be more capable of conversion into carrying V/STOL aircraft but that's still a political threshold Japan has to cross.
 
Japan has 50+ destroyers and destroyer escorts with all but the DDH's having Harpoon and normally operates within range of  land based aircraft carrying air to surface weapons.  As far as I am aware JMSDF SH-60J/Ks do not operate anti ship missiles.
 
The JMSDF is heavily geared toward ASW and in many ways is what the Cold War RN sought to be but could not afford.  The move toward force projection capability will remain slow and steady.  
 
 

 
 
 
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SlowMan       9/5/2009 12:39:55 AM
@ benellim4

> My question is how do you project power with an SH-60?

You don't; you do with F-35B.

> These ships remind me more of the USSR's air-capable cruisers than a true carrier.

They are basically like US Navy's Wasp-class LHDs.

@ YelliChink

> What will JMSDF name after the planned flat tops? Akagi and Kaga? Shokaku and Zuikaku?

Old names of Imperial Navy ships will be resurrected.

@ maruben

> The Japanase Government has declared that Hyouga is not a carrier, but just looks like a carrier, does not have any offensive capacity and its main goal

is just to be a helicopters transporter.

And no one outside of Japan believes that. You can already hear Chinese screaming "OMG, Japanese b****ds are building giant carriers to attack us!!!"

> The japanese newspapers mentions the new ship will be 19,500 tons of displacement.

Yes, 19,500 ton empty displacement. The actual loaded displacement would be closer to 30,000 ton.

> It seems that Japanese maritime self defense force is worry about the Chinese cruise missile warships.

The purpose of DDH is anti-sub missions. Chinese have around 55~60 subs.

Except that 22DDH isn't a DDH; it's basically a British-style light carrier.

@ cheshirematt

> I would guess pretty easily, if the other guy doesn't have a carrier to counter you with.

Chinese government approved construction of three 60,000 ton full-size carriers, with first one under construction.

@ History Buff

> And let us not forget that Japan's 200 F-15's can now reach North Korea and back, while carrying heavy bomb loads,

Japan's F-15s are regular Eagles, not Strike Eagles. They are for A2A only.

Japan really has no air strike capability, since F-15J are A2A only while F-2 is specialized in anti-ship attacks.
 
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smitty237    What would you do?   9/5/2009 1:51:55 AM
I am not an expert on the Japanese Defense Forces or the Japanese constitution, but I do consider myself a student of history.  When I think of American security, I do not fear what the Japanese military can do today............I fear what the Japanese military might do twenty to thirty years from now.  Currently Japanese defense policy is focused on self defense and is averse to any sort of force projection, but as everyone knows, the best defense is a good offense.  As the Japanese become more and more aware that they can no longer depend upon the United States for its defense (if they haven't already) they will begin to realize that the best way to protect Japan is to hit her potential enemies before they hit her.  Since Japan is an island nation, a navy capable of offensive action is vital. 
 
One need not look much farther than the Treaty of Versailles to see how a country can manipulate words in order to circumvent restrictions on its offensive capabilities.  Tanks could become "armored gun carriers", fighters could become "defensive sentries", and aircraft carriers could become "helicopter carrying destroyers".  Adding V/STOL aircraft like the F-35 to these ship could obfuscate things a bit, but you could get around that by claiming that they are "self defense" aircraft. 
 
Given the mixed signals that the Obama Administration has been sending our allies, can you really blame the Japanese for reevaluating their defense policy?
 
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maruben    50,000 tons   9/5/2009 11:06:49 AM
And no one outside of Japan believes that. You can already hear Chinese screaming "OMG, Japanese b****ds are building giant carriers to attack us!!!"
Some Chinese were expecting or guessing that new design would be 50,000 tons (actually is only 19,500 tons design). So they will need to wait about 10 years to see our first 50,000 helicopter destroyer. However officially I had not heard anything about the 50,000 tons design. 
 
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maruben    Old Names   9/5/2009 11:36:04 AM
> What will JMSDF name after the planned flat tops? Akagi and Kaga? Shokaku and Zuikaku?

Old names of Imperial Navy ships will be resurrected.
Actually it more than that. Hyuga and Ise are names of the old states or provinces of Japan used to name these 2 Japanese imperial navy battleships.
 
Both, Hyuga and Ise were imperial navy battleship modified to carry airplanes. This is the reason why those names have been used.
 
I am not sure but I cannot find information if a third battleship was modified to carry airplane of if there were plans to modify a third battleship during WW2. If there were any I think the new JMSDF ship will get that name. 
Sayonara
Maruben
 
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benellim4       9/5/2009 12:02:54 PM
Slowman, I don't need lectures on what they are or are not. Especially not from someone who as divorced from facts as you are.

LB has this exactly right. These are ASW ships. They are not power projection tools.  These ships fit into existing Japanese naval doctrine. They are not a new trend. Perhaps if they build a bigger class or another class then yes Japan will have power projection capability, but these DDHs are not it.
 
Just because one ship looks like another ship doesn't mean they are equivalents. I tried to point that out with my allusion to the Soviet aviation capable cruisers. The Soviets never intended them to be power projection ships (now the Chinese might repurpose the design, but that is yet to be seen.).  The aviation capable cruisers fit into Soviet naval doctine. They were not a counterpart to our carriers.

That is the danger in judging equipment by their looks. Equipment may look the same. That does not mean they serve the same purpose.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Perspective please....   9/5/2009 12:13:57 PM
I believe it is reasonable for Japan to procure flattops like these and still remain within their traditional post WWII self defense role. I would remind everybody that the PLAN's submarine fleet which was limited in it's ability to operate out of sight of land has become ever more sophisticated. China has recengly operated its Submarines in areas of the western pacific that are in territorial dispute with its neighbors and in some areas where there is no dispute! The PLAN is the great threat to Japan and the region. Remember please that Japan is a island nation which can not allow the PLAN to cut it off from its trading partners.
 
Having said all of that, I assert that these new ships are not suitable for real power projection. Someone here claimed they are like the US Wasp Class LHD's and that is just complete malarky! The larger of these ships are barely 20,000 tons, where the Wasp Class is over 40,000 tons displacement. The Wasp is hardly a power projection force since the most it can embark is a light squadron of Harriers and about one thousand Marine Expedetionary troops. Japan's fleet needs to carry more helicopters with it than it needed to in years past. They need organic assets capable of supporting those ASW helos in ways that a Frigate or conventional destroyer simply can not.
 
In addition to these common sense answers I challenge anyone to show me where the JSDF has said it is interested in buying someone's used Harriers or the F-35B. Also, I remember reading that the
F-35's weight makes it unsuitable to operate off of truly small carriers of this class, 20,000 tons +/-, and the most Harriers you would ever get on it would be 8-10 (you would be sacrificing it's ASW capability by leaving the helocopters at home should you do that!). 
 
If I was Japan I'd be buying these types of ships and the ASW helos that they are designed to operate as a hedge against a PLAN.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky 
 
 
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