NEW: Follow the Editorial Staff on
StrategyPage Twitter Link


GROUND COMBAT +

AIR COMBAT +

NAVAL OPERATIONS +

SPECIAL OPERATIONS +

HUMAN FACTORS +

SPECIAL WEAPONS +

WARFARE BY THE NUMBERS +

LOGISTICS +

TOOLS +


Visit StrategyPage's US Cavalry Store



Murphy's Law Article Index : Current 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009
 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics

Never Bring A Knife To A Gun Fight

November 5, 2009: Russia is very confident that their Su-27/30 aircraft is the best dog-fighting (close range) combat aircraft on the planet. The Su-27 (and the improved version, the Su-30) was designed for maximum maneuverability. There have been several mock battles between Su-27/30 and American (F-15, mainly) aircraft, and the Russian planes always did well during close range battles that depended on maximum maneuverability. But the U.S. has, over the last few decades, shifted their aerial combat tactics from close range, to long range, tactics. Give the American advantages in stealth, electronic warfare and missile quality, this is believed to give U.S. aircraft an edge.

Five years ago, U.S. Air Force F-15s and Indian Air Force Su-30s got together and held some combat exercises. The mock battles were a draw. The radars of the F-15 and Su-30 enabled each aircraft to detect each other at about the same time. For purposes of the exercise, it was assumed that the American AMRAAM and Indian (Russian made) AA-10 missiles had similar hit characteristics. The American pilots had little to say about their experiences at the exercise, apparently having been ordered to keep quiet. The Indians, however, began to speculate that the Americans were deliberately holding back. One very important element left out of these simulated battles was the use of electronic countermeasures. The Indians feel that the Americans were just trying to get some experience with the Su-30, which is also the most advanced aircraft in the Chinese air force.

The Indian Su-30 has better electronics than the Chinese or Russian models. The Indians insisted on installing Western fire control and computer equipment. The Russian radars are known to have good range and raw power, but poor fire control equipment (forcing the Russian pilots to work harder to get the same results than a pilot using Western fire control gear.) Another unknown was the actual combat performance of the AA-10 or AA-12 (again, a Soviet response to the AMRAAM.) The AMRAAM has been used in combat, and has a lot more actual use than the AA-10 or AA-12. Still, a 1:1 exchange rate is not what the U.S. Air Force is looking for, having long been accustomed to 1:5 or 1:10 or more kill ratios. Others see the results of the exercise as another portion of the air force effort to get more money to build more F-22s. Along these lines, the air force also pointed out the superior dog fighting capability of the highly maneuverable Su-30, which is equipped with a look and shoot helmet for the pilot and highly maneuverable heat-seeking missiles.

 

submit to reddit
Send Link to a Friend
Next Article SOMALIA: You Really Can't Make This Stuff Up


Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Sort in Reverse Order Posted

trenchsol       11/5/2009 11:37:38 AM
Maneuverability isn't everything. During WWII F4 Wildcats and F6 Hellcats did well against more maneuverable Japanese fighters. P-47 Thunderbolts also did well against German fighters.
 
But, it is not "Americans vs. Soviets" any more. Both, American and Russian fighters are exported to third countries, which might find themselves in war against each other. In that case, there might be no advanced tactics (stealth or other), and fighters might find themselves in classic dogfight, where  maneuverability might be major factor.
 
DG

 
Quote    Reply

smitty237       11/5/2009 1:07:20 PM
If the Indians thought we were holding back then they sure as hell weren't saying so at the time.  I remember on this site a lot of the Indian posters crowing triumphantly about how the superior Indian Air Force had waxed our asses.  There was a lot of talk at the time that the rules of engagement had been set up to help the Indians a little and blunt our technological edge, but the Indian posters wouldn't hear of it.  I suspect that the Indian Air Force was correct in its opinion that we were using the exercise to get some experience with the SU-30 since it is probably the most advanced fighter our pilots could potentially face. 
 
I just hope the Air Force doesn't make some of the same mistakes it has made in the past and focus on only one strategy or training regimen at the expense of others.  They should definitely train on long range combat and the use of electronic countermeasures, but they should also continue to train their pilots on dogfighting at close range.  Destroying an SU-30 from twenty miles away may be a lot safer, but they still need to know how to win a knife fight. 
 
Quote    Reply

enomosiki       11/5/2009 6:40:19 PM
The fact that people still bring up Cope India as a valid comparison between Eagles and Flankers simply boggles my mind.
 
People really need to research more.
 
 
If the Indians thought we were holding back then they sure as hell weren't saying so at the time.  I remember on this site a lot of the Indian posters crowing triumphantly about how the superior Indian Air Force had waxed our asses.  There was a lot of talk at the time that the rules of engagement had been set up to help the Indians a little and blunt our technological edge, but the Indian posters wouldn't hear of it.  I suspect that the Indian Air Force was correct in its opinion that we were using the exercise to get some experience with the SU-30 since it is probably the most advanced fighter our pilots could potentially face. 

The "superior" IAF got its ass handed over during last year's Red Flag, I believe, in nearly every possible aspects.

I just hope the Air Force doesn't make some of the same mistakes it has made in the past and focus on only one strategy or training regimen at the expense of others.  They should definitely train on long range combat and the use of electronic countermeasures, but they should also continue to train their pilots on dogfighting at close range.  Destroying an SU-30 from twenty miles away may be a lot safer, but they still need to know how to win a knife fight. 
Again, Red Flag. That's the best possible exercise any pilots can get.
 
I recommend you to go watch Fighter Pilot: Operation Red Flag if you can. It actually contains some interesting footages.
 
Quote    Reply

ker    Knife Fight   11/6/2009 10:58:56 AM
A TV program declaired that Russian Speznas would beat American Army Special Forces in a squade level ingagement.  Their "data" involed Russian shotgun, hand gun and the fact that the Russian spring knife was a beter weapon than an E-tool (folding shovle).  No mention was made of intelegence suport, J-dams or logistics. 
 
Much like predicting out comes of air combat with refrence only to plane preformance.
 
Quote    Reply

Lance Blade       11/7/2009 12:00:20 PM
Does the US Air Force have its version of Top Gun?
 
Cause a 1:1 kill ratio in a simulation sounds quite apalling. So apalling as to make a good report to shove under politicians' noses to get them to fund more F-22s. The author did well in pointing that out.
 
Quote    Reply





New Strategy - Wargames at Discount Prices
1.Modern Air Power: War Over the Middle East
2.Commander: Napoleon at War
3.Close Combat: Watch am Rhein
4.Gallic Wars
5.Fast Action Battle: The Bulge

100+ Computer and Board games all with free shipping.
 
 
 

StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2009StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy