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Russia Dumps Quality In Favor Of Mediocrity

July 26, 2009: Russia's efforts to downsize and professionalize their military, especially their ground forces, continues to encounter problems. The idea behind the new defense reforms in the Russian military is to create a large, but more professional and competent force, than has been the case with the mass conscript armies that have dominated Russia since the Soviet period. Unfortunately, some of these goals are backfiring, as new measures to save money and get rid of excessive numbers of senior personnel are having the exact opposite result.  

About 320,000 new draftees will be conscripted into the Russian Army during the Fall of 2009. This is a major jump up from the 219,000 inductees during Fall of 2008. Last Spring, only 133,000 new recruits were drafted for the ground forces. Part of this is due to the massive personnel cuts and reorganization that the armed forces have been undergoing recently. The officer ranks are being dramatically reduced and the entire rank of warrant officer has been eliminated and absorbed into other ranks. Finally, despite recently spending more money on their military, after years of massive neglect, the number of contract personnel (volunteer soldiers who serve longer than conscripts and are considered more reliable) is being reduced as well . The reason is simple: contract personnel cost more to train and retain than draftees, money that the Russians right now have to conserve as much as possible. All of this, of course, has crippled and cut down on the people needed most for a smaller, more competent military. 

So it has all come down to a contest between numbers and quality. The Russians want to reduce their numbers from 1.34 million to 1 million personnel by 2012. But they still need, or feel that they need, to maintain at least a million troops available for war. This is a very different attitude from most European countries, especially Germany many NATO members, who often fall into the delusion that they will never again have to fight a major war. Countries like Germany and others in Western Europe are hesitant to deploy their forces anywhere in the world to begin with,  and naturally assume that any deployments will be against terrorists or irregular fighters.

Not so for the Russians, who have been almost continuously involved in major conflict since the collapse of the USSR and automatically base their military doctrine on the premise that they will fight another major conventional theatre war sometime in the near or far future. Russia still views NATO as its primary conventional enemy, and prepares accordingly, particularly as countries within their traditional sphere of influence (like Georgia) become closer to the U.S. 

The induction of larger numbers of conscripts is unlikely to alleviate the problems Russia has had with troop quality and morale in the last decade. Conscripts are poorly-trained, often abused, amd utterly unreliable in situations (like in crime-ridden Chechnya) where the presence of bribes is common. Conscripts frequently fall prey to alcoholism and drug abuse. The best troops the Russians currently have are their VDV Airborne Forces, which they used as their spearheads during the 2008 war with Georgia, and are the only significant units to make a make qualitative resurgence from the chaotic '90s. Given their current situation, the Russians are in dire need of deciding whether they want quantity or quality, since trying to have them both is obviously backfiring.   

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trenchsol       7/26/2009 9:59:59 AM
I am don't know about Russian Army, but I was a conscript in former Yugoslav Army, which tried very hard to mimic everything Russian. It was just before the outbreak of Yugoslav wars.
 
After some 3 months of basic training,  it has become  the most useless period of my life. I was lucky  to  get involved in some paperwork,  while most of other  conscripts have been doing endless cleaning and washing, which  seemed  to have  no effect, because the whole base was incredibly dirty all the time. I was constantly sick because of inadequate food, just like the others. If I was able to find somebody to make a movie based on all the stupidity I have seen there, it would have been a top selling comedy. All in all, it was a poor fighting force.
 
A friend of mine went into Yugoslav Army a bit later and got caught in a military action against Slovenia. The guys in his platoon were thinking about killing their officer and run away. Later, they established better relations with him, and he admitted that he also planned to run away from them, too.

DG
 
 
Quote    Reply

SSS383       7/26/2009 2:55:28 PM
Did you ever get the chance to train on any weapons other than your rifle?  Heavy machineguns and/or RPG type weapons, or was there very little training?
 
Quote    Reply

Gerry       7/26/2009 8:29:11 PM
I think as long as Russia views the west and NATO as their primary foes, then that is where they will have their war. A time will come when the circumstances are right for Russia to justify their fears. The only question is who will be first, Poland, Rumainia, Bulgaria, Ukraine, the Balkins? Latvia, Lithaunia, or Estonia? Paranoia creates its own enemies, and Russian history feeds that paranoia. China will be the real threat, but ignored by Russia due to the terrain and distance from Moscow. At least until China sees its interests again in Mongolia and the border countries with all the oil.
 
Quote    Reply

razputin       7/26/2009 10:48:51 PM

I am don't know about Russian Army, but I was a conscript in former Yugoslav Army, which tried very hard to mimic everything Russian. It was just before the outbreak of Yugoslav wars.


 

After some 3 months of basic training,  it has become  the most useless period of my life. I was lucky  to  get involved in some paperwork,  while most of other  conscripts have been doing endless cleaning and washing, which  seemed  to have  no effect, because the whole base was incredibly dirty all the time. I was constantly sick because of inadequate food, just like the others. If I was able to find somebody to make a movie based on all the stupidity I have seen there, it would have been a top selling comedy. All in all, it was a poor fighting force.


 

A friend of mine went into Yugoslav Army a bit later and got caught in a military action against Slovenia. The guys in his platoon were thinking about killing their officer and run away. Later, they established better relations with him, and he admitted that he also planned to run away from them, too.




DG


 
tenchsol
I had many friends in the Yugoslav army and let me tell you NATO was lucky it did not have to commit troops on the ground during the Yugoslav bombing campaign. Iraq and Afghanistan would seem like a picnic with pinatas compared to what could have happened. Luckily for NATO Chernomyrdin was able to convince Serbian leadership to simply accept NATO's terms in peace negotiations. Too damn bad. Serbs were always very capable fighters.
 
As far as the article is concerned it is a load of bull. It was true during the 90's. Nowadays there are many problems but they are gradually being worked on and Georgia was the first test and we passed it well (with the exception of Russian AF of course).  
 
Raz

 
Quote    Reply

cwDeici       7/27/2009 5:07:12 AM
Serbs are good fighters, but they got beat in their last war by the Croations, whom after digging through their lies, were revealed to benefit from Western planning and intelligence.
 
And for example in one of the safe-zones in the border between Kosovo and Serbia that the Serbs were planning to (mainly) annihalate (and) chase out the defenders (including the civilians) had nothing but irregular infantry and the Serbians had tanks, which they never committed fully (if they had Serbia would be one-two hundred square kilometers larger).
 
That and the above doesn't speak much to me about the capabilities of the Yugoslav army, but I bet the Serbians had more reliable units staffed mainly with Serbs?
 
Quote    Reply

cwDeici       7/27/2009 5:07:50 AM
Lol, Croatians.
 
And yes, I'm aware of their and others' atrocities against Serbia as well.
 
Quote    Reply

cwDeici       7/27/2009 5:11:46 AM




I am don't know about Russian Army, but I was a conscript in former Yugoslav Army, which tried very hard to mimic everything Russian. It was just before the outbreak of Yugoslav wars.






 



After some 3 months of basic training,  it has become  the most useless period of my life. I was lucky  to  get involved in some paperwork,  while most of other  conscripts have been doing endless cleaning and washing, which  seemed  to have  no effect, because the whole base was incredibly dirty all the time. I was constantly sick because of inadequate food, just like the others. If I was able to find somebody to make a movie based on all the stupidity I have seen there, it would have been a top selling comedy. All in all, it was a poor fighting force.






 



A friend of mine went into Yugoslav Army a bit later and got caught in a military action against Slovenia. The guys in his platoon were thinking about killing their officer and run away. Later, they established better relations with him, and he admitted that he also planned to run away from them, too.










DG






 


tenchsol


I had many friends in the Yugoslav army and let me tell you NATO was lucky it did not have to commit troops on the ground during the Yugoslav bombing campaign. Iraq and Afghanistan would seem like a picnic with pinatas compared to what could have happened. Luckily for NATO Chernomyrdin was able to convince Serbian leadership to simply accept NATO's terms in peace negotiations. Too damn bad. Serbs were always very capable fighters.

 

As far as the article is concerned it is a load of bull. It was true during the 90's. Nowadays there are many problems but they are gradually being worked on and Georgia was the first test and we passed it well (with the exception of Russian AF of course).  

 

Raz






I'm sure the article is overrated in its assuredness of itself. However - would you apply these examples to us? Few things coming out of Russia indicate high quality.
Defeating Georgia should have been smoother. Now granted they had some western training and weapons, but against Russia's cream it should have met with less minor difficulties. And your commander got killed in action (not sure if this was bad area overwatch or good-/-bad Georgian-Russian intelligence).
 
Quote    Reply

razputin       7/27/2009 4:19:06 PM









I am don't know about Russian Army, but I was a conscript in former Yugoslav Army, which tried very hard to mimic everything Russian. It was just before the outbreak of Yugoslav wars.














 







After some 3 months of basic training,  it has become  the most useless period of my life. I was lucky  to  get involved in some paperwork,  while most of other  conscripts have been doing endless cleaning and washing, which  seemed  to have  no effect, because the whole base was incredibly dirty all the time. I was constantly sick because of inadequate food, just like the others. If I was able to find somebody to make a movie based on all the stupidity I have seen there, it would have been a top selling comedy. All in all, it was a poor fighting force.














 







A friend of mine went into Yugoslav Army a bit later and got caught in a military action against Slovenia. The guys in his platoon were thinking about killing their officer and run away. Later, they established better relations with him, and he admitted that he also planned to run away from them, too.






















DG














 






tenchsol






I had many friends in the Yugoslav army and let me tell you NATO was lucky it did not have to commit troops on the ground during the Yugoslav bombing campaign. Iraq and Afghanistan would seem like a picnic with pinatas compared to what could have happened. Luckily for NATO Chernomyrdin was able to convince Serbian leadership to simply accept NATO's terms in peace negotiations. Too damn bad. Serbs were always very capable fighters.



 



As far as the article is concerned it is a load of bull. It was true during the 90's. Nowadays there are many problems but they are gradually being worked on and Georgia was the first test and we passed it well (with the exception of Russian AF of course).  



 



Raz















I'm sure the article is overrated in its assuredness of itself. However - would you apply these examples to us? Few things coming out of Russia indicate high quality.

Defeating Georgia should have been smoother. Now granted they had some western training and weapons, but against Russia's cream it should have met with less minor difficulties. And your commander got killed in action (not sure if this was bad area overwatch or good-/-bad Georgian-Russian intelligence).

 
Such a careless commander deserves to die.
 
     Defeating Georgia was smooth by our standards.


 
 
Quote    Reply

trenchsol       7/27/2009 8:23:39 PM


tenchsol


I had many friends in the Yugoslav army and let me tell you NATO was lucky it did not have to commit troops on the ground during the Yugoslav bombing campaign. Iraq and Afghanistan would seem like a picnic with pinatas compared to what could have happened. Luckily for NATO Chernomyrdin was able to convince Serbian leadership to simply accept NATO's terms in peace negotiations. Too damn bad. Serbs were always very capable fighters.


Raz, I am talking about Yugoslav Army before 1990, and you are talking about 1999. At that time, the army was, if nothing else, ethnically  homogeneous, consisting, as you said, mostly of Serbian fighters. Montenegro was also part of Yugoslavia at that time, but there are not many Montenegrins altogether, about 600 000 total. If nothing else, there was much more patriotism, because very few people loved Yugoslavia.  I am Croat, but, yes, Serbs are good fighters. All the people in Balkans are good fighters, because there was hardly ever a period of 50 years without war.
 
I guess Russian army got better after the end of Soviet Union for same reason. Todays Russia is much more  ethnically  homogeneous then Soviet Union.
 
But, there are always problems with conscripts. Most of them don't want to be in the army. Those not interested in military career see it as a huge waste of time, months or years of life taken away from them. They are frustrated and they resist everything. Some of them might change their minds if faced with a situation when they need to fight for their lives.
 
Let me describe one incident during my conscription. Soldiers who were on guard duty left their post. They went to nearby highway, stopped the traffic and threatened people using rifles with live ammunition. There was an officer in charge during weekend, but he was drunk as well. He went for inspection of the base, but  as soon as driver open the car doors, he fell out, so they needed to carry him into bed. Nothing serious happened to any of them, it was all covered up. It describes the state of Yugoslav army at the end of 80's last century.  Being a good fighter does not have anything  with it. It was not the only incident.
 
DG
 
 
Quote    Reply

trenchsol       7/27/2009 9:03:06 PM

Did you ever get the chance to train on any weapons other than your rifle?  Heavy machineguns and/or RPG type weapons, or was there very little training?

No. I have trained with rifle, hand grenades, basic usage of explosives (I was able to detonate a live charge) and planting land mines (blank, without explosives). I did not serve in infantry (air defense), but basic training is what is says, it is the same for everyone. There were two infantry companies next to me, and, from what guys said, nobody trained with machine guns except gunners themselves. It as strange, but as far as I recall, I haven't seen anyone with anti-tank weapons. I'd like to mention that Yugoslavia had personal anti tank weapons of their own design.
 
There was something particularly interesting, a military police unit had, kind of, special forces training, on some other location. One of them was even issued a sniper rifle. They were conscripts, too.
 
Another thing. I think that someone there had a strange sense of humor. There was an infantry company  (or it was a bit larger platoon, I am not sure) forming up next to us for morning inspection. The guys formed a single rank, from tallest to shortest. The tallest guys had shortest guns, AK's with folding stock. Shorter ones had longer ones, AK's with wooden stock and Yugoslav versions of SKS carbine. On the opposite end, one of the smallest guys had Yugoslav version of German MG-42 machine gun, the one still used Mauser 7.92 ammo, I think. We have commented it many times, and I still don't know what it meant. There was a lot of disorder, nobody cared for anything, and, perhaps, someone was making stupid jokes.
 
There was a lot of theft. Brand new, unused, military clothes (like socks) were openly sold on city marketplace. On the other hand, soldiers were missing those clothes, and older soldiers were stealing it from the younger ones (I did, too).  I've seen even parts of military equipment (not weapons) on the market.

DG

 
Quote    Reply

trenchsol       7/27/2009 9:18:05 PM
Bit more explanation,  tied to Raz's comment and my answer. Until 1990, Yugoslavia was a federation of six republics and two autonomous provinces. Four republics parted, and sometimes around 1997 new state of Yugoslavia (SRJ - Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) was formed, consisting of two former republics, Serbia and Montenegro. Montenegro parted, too, in 2006, I think, so there is no Yugoslavia today.
 
It was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia that faced NATO in 1999.     

DG

 
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