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USAF Building Disruptor Capability Right Now

December 23, 2008: The U.S. Air Force doesn't say much about its work on high-powered microwave (HPM) weapons. But recently the air force asked defense firms to bid on a contract to build CHAMP (Counter-Electronics HPM Advanced Missile Project). The air force wants a missile (or a pod for aircraft) that can give off several burst of HPM (that will damage or destroy any electronic gear within a certain range), and thus take out several targets. This CHAMP contract will pay $40 million to the winning bid, and allow 36 months to come up with a weapon that works. If that is accomplished, the CHAMP system would be in service within 4-5 years.

Meanwhile, quietly, and without much fanfare, the U.S. Air Force has been equipping some of its fighters with electronic ray type weapons. Not quite the death ray of science fiction fame, but an electronic ray type weapon none the less. In this case, the weapon uses the high-powered microwave (HPM) effects found in Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar technology. These radars have been around a long time, popular mainly for their ability deal with lots of targets simultaneously. But AESA is also able to focus a concentrated beam of radio energy that could scramble electronic components of a distant target. Sort of like the EMP (Electromagnetic Pulse) put out by nuclear weapons.

The air force won't, for obvious reasons, discuss the exact kill range of the of the various models of AESA radars on American warplanes (the F-15, F-35 and F-22 have them). However, it is known that range in this case is an elastic thing. Depending on how well the target electronics are hardened against EMP, more electrical power will be required to do damage. Moreover, the electrical power of the various AESA radars in service varies as well. The air force has said that the larger AESA radar it plans to install on its E-10 radar aircraft would be able to zap cruise missile guidance systems up to 180 kilometers away. The E-10 AESA is several times larger than the one in the F-35 (the largest in use now), so make your own estimates. Smaller versions of this technology would arm the CHAMP system.

 

 

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JFKY    Let me put this out now...   12/23/2008 10:03:07 AM
to beat the rush.  The Rafale was designed, from the outset, with space/weight and generator capacity for just this technology.  Whereas the US is going to have to retro-fit this into it's F-teens, the F-22 and F-35, La France was far-sighted enough to realize that this was the wave of the future, and the F-3+ version of the Rafale will have this capacity in IOC of about 2012.  This weapon combined with SPECTRA makes the Rafale virtually unchallengeable in the air.
 
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VelocityVector       12/23/2008 10:32:13 AM
A Christmas present for the Frogs.  How very generous of you ;>)  I'm continually amazed at all the capability the Frog manages to pack into his cute lil Rafale, and all that foresightedness.  Wow.

v^2
 
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Softwar    cRapfale....   12/23/2008 11:16:10 AM

to beat the rush.  The Rafale was designed, from the outset, with space/weight and generator capacity for just this technology.  Whereas the US is going to have to retro-fit this into it's F-teens, the F-22 and F-35, La France was far-sighted enough to realize that this was the wave of the future, and the F-3+ version of the Rafale will have this capacity in IOC of about 2012.  This weapon combined with SPECTRA makes the Rafale virtually unchallengeable in the air.


Oh WOW - another fake claim going up in flames....

The F-35 was designed at the outset with HPM or laser weapons in the base models.  The plan is to tap the engine energy directly using the shaft system designed for VSTOL operations.  Several F-35 proposals on the table now are to use the area behind the cockpit that is presently reserved for the lift fans to house the beam systems.  We have already seen active proposals by LockMart on the table to drop the cannon and add a 25KW solid state laser in its place. 
 
Rafale was NEVER designed with this kind of power output and cannot be retro-fitted to do so.
 
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JFKY    Softwar   12/23/2008 11:23:29 AM
It's obvious that you have not been keeping abreast of things...Rafale, OBVIOUSLY, had this designed from the start.  As Thales and D'assault Aviation have been leaders in Directed Energy Research, the US piggy-backing off of their work, in fact.  So whilst I say "Bully for the US" equipping it's badly flawed F-22/35 with a very good weapon it will be the AdA which fields it first....along with the SPECTRA system of interactive interferometry providing a truly passive detection system it is safe to say that France is quite safe from any threat, from Russia OR America...I dare say that several Rafales, so equipped could cue on the F-22's and defeat them without the F-22's ever being aware of the Rafale's presence...
 
You can insult me all you want, but the truth is out there...
 
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Whispering_Death       12/23/2008 11:28:20 AM

It's obvious that you have not been keeping abreast of things...Rafale, OBVIOUSLY, had this designed from the start.  As Thales and D'assault Aviation have been leaders in Directed Energy Research, the US piggy-backing off of their work, in fact.  So whilst I say "Bully for the US" equipping it's badly flawed F-22/35 with a very good weapon it will be the AdA which fields it first....along with the SPECTRA system of interactive interferometry providing a truly passive detection system it is safe to say that France is quite safe from any threat, from Russia OR America...I dare say that several Rafales, so equipped could cue on the F-22's and defeat them without the F-22's ever being aware of the Rafale's presence...

 

You can insult me all you want, but the truth is out there...


Can the Rafale cure cancer too?
 
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Softwar    Fact not fiction   12/23/2008 11:31:55 AM
Look the facts are already out there...
 
FACT
Has Rafale even added a laser designator (Damocles) yet?  No.  You need to use the M2K to designate your targets.
 
FACT
Has Rafale added a AESA radar yet?  No.  One is planned but no budget for it.
 
FACT
Your claim that you have an IOC for a beam weapon by 2012 is pure speculation and you know it.  No bucks ... No Buck Rogers.
 
FACT
Your claim that the F-35 was not designed for beam weapons is totally incorrect as per LockMart who had HPM and laser systems in the works before the first drawings were laid. 
 
FACT
Rafale cannot tap the engines directly - as the F-35 is designed to do - because of the 1980s design.  Instead, it will have to suffer with plain old generators strung somewhere on that tiny airframe - hanging out in the wind with all the other great big radar reflectors.
 
Basically your post that Rafale will have HPM or laser is pure fiction.  I suggest you go back to the comic books and next time do some real research before posting.
 
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HERALD1357    Its a JOKE!   12/23/2008 11:33:00 AM



to beat the rush.  The Rafale was designed, from the outset, with space/weight and generator capacity for just this technology.  Whereas the US is going to have to retro-fit this into it's F-teens, the F-22 and F-35, La France was far-sighted enough to realize that this was the wave of the future, and the F-3+ version of the Rafale will have this capacity in IOC of about 2012.  This weapon combined with SPECTRA makes the Rafale virtually unchallengeable in the air.






Oh WOW - another fake claim going up in flames....



The F-35 was designed at the outset with HPM or laser weapons in the base models.  The plan is to tap the engine energy directly using the shaft system designed for VSTOL operations.  Several F-35 proposals on the table now are to use the area behind the cockpit that is presently reserved for the lift fans to house the beam systems.  We have already seen active proposals by LockMart on the table to drop the cannon and add a 25KW solid state laser in its place. 

 

Rafale was NEVER designed with this kind of power output and cannot be retro-fitted to do so.


JFKY is waxing ironic. He wants to beat the rush to the wild eyed claims before this thread is fanboy tanked.
 
In the meantime I'm interested to see what others who have a clue have to say about self-[powered HPM pod weapons being designed.as USAF aircraft stores ordnance  THAT has me interested because it would sort of indicate to me that some of the legacy aircraft could use such a weapon pod at a hard point to supplement our EW capability considerably. BEAGLES with ray guns?
 
Anything would help. We are somewhat outclassed in certain critical EW technologies by several other nations, that it isn't funny. This would swing the balance back our way a bit.
 
Herald.
 
 

 
 
 
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JFKY    Herald....   12/23/2008 11:41:46 AM
What would power the pod?  A wind turbine, like something on the ALQ-99?  Would that generate enough power to run a DEW?
 
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Softwar       12/23/2008 11:48:31 AM
I suspect that the key here is "self-generating" - which means it either has an onboard power source or uses some means of EMG to pump out the kind of kilowatts needed.  I suspect that some of the research into PDE engine technology might have an application here if you can find a decent way to convert the engine power output into a usuable stream for the beam system.  It also could be a relative to the chemical system used on the ABL and Sky Guard systems.
 
HPM systems have had trouble in the beam focus end but the advent of AESA has shown that we can control the beam generation and focus it properly at great distances.  The key there is the target and its vulnerability vs. beam power output at range.  Thus, the reason why the USAF is very interested in the E-10 platform with a really big array and nice onboard generation capability.
 
The only real solution is to tap engine output directly - as proposed on a number of the X-47 designs and intended for the F-35.  This can generate tons of power within the design limitations of a stealth platform.  The reason why I mention stealth here is the fact that HPM limitations appear to reduce its effective range to where some sort of stealthy platform is required for delivery.  So far the only exception is the AESA applications now flying on the F-22, F-15 and F-18.
 
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HERALD1357       12/23/2008 12:20:10 PM

What would power the pod?  A wind turbine, like something on the ALQ-99?  Would that generate enough power to run a DEW?
That is why we previously didn't have such devices. Somebody must have figured out how to generate the watts without needing an explosive driven flux capacitor, or its variant. My own guess is that somebody figured out how to turn a miniature turbojet into a working MHD generator and that somebody made a capacitor breakthrough. I know about the capacitors, but whether somebody built such a small MHD generator? I don't know. .
 
Herald  .

 
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FastBack    Few points   12/23/2008 1:05:01 PM
Only something like 18 F-15's have AESA, though other upgrades were tentatively planned.
 
Your list neglects the latest blocks of F-18 that have AESA
 
E-10 was cancelled as far as I know.
 
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Softwar    The laugh's on me JFKY   12/23/2008 1:17:30 PM

JFKY is waxing ironic. He wants to beat the rush to the wild eyed claims before this thread is fanboy tanked.

 
Herald. 
 

You guys need to warn me before I make a fool of myself.  I certainly have tangled with BW and FS too many times so I take the Rafale claims too seriously.  For a while there it seemed like the fanboys were going to make out that Rafale has its own warp drive, photon torpedos, phasers and a stealth cloak by SPECTRA.
 
Still, good one JFKY - you jerked my chain and I barked like a blue tic hound chasing after a rabbit..  Maybe I need to switch to decafe for a while.
The key to a self-contained beam weapon is not the electonic guts but what are you using to power it.  Sure it helps to have a cap with giga volt capability the size of my thumb but how you generate the charge is the real question.  One cannot carry the Hoover dam under the wing of a BEagle.  There were some experiments with EMG-like systems that used cartridge explosive cannisters to generate the needed power for an MHD generator but there are limits to the number of shots.
 
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Softwar    The laugh's on me JFKY   12/23/2008 1:20:19 PM

Only something like 18 F-15's have AESA, though other upgrades were tentatively planned.

 

Your list neglects the latest blocks of F-18 that have AESA

 

E-10 was cancelled as far as I know.


I did include the F-18 on the list.  The Navy is pretty tight lipped about the E/F but they recently exercised them off Pax river with the AESA.  No word on how well it went but I see some smiling faces in the ranks.
 
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aki009    French powerpoints   12/23/2008 1:59:44 PM
Guys (gals?), this conversation is -- to quote a young member of my extended family -- silly. We all know that the French airforce flies powerpoint airplanes. On powerpoint presentations they will have all the features in the world, but when deployed to say Afghanistan, even the simplest stuff, like laser designators are ducktaped on with a prayer.
 
This is not surprising. The French airforce -- while consisting of very capable and dedicated individuals -- has had to cope with a socialist government for a very long time. They receive money for make-work projects, e.g. designing new stuff, but less for operations and building things that employ fewer highly paid union employees. Hence the disparity between plans and reality. This is a pan-european phenomena, but hits the French the hardest, as they try to maintain independent capabilities in a large number of areas. (The US was suffering from the same R&D-but-don't-build under Clinton.)
 
As to the Rafale, the reality remains that the aircraft does not have the generators needed to feed HPM systems. There is no place to put these inside the sleek airframe either. This means that a HPM system in the Rafale airframe is likely to have a relatively low max power, or to be run by some ingenious setup, e.g. external APU on a pod, or a chemical battery on steroids.
 
I believe that neither the F-35 nor Rafale can claim to have been designed for HPM, as both of their original design goals were set at a time when the capabilities of HPM were towards the end of the powerpoint deck in the R&D section. It's a convenient coincidence that the F-35 in its non-STOL versions has an additional space that can be taken up, for example, by the mother of all airborne generators, attached to the STOL-clutch system, and whatever electronic gadgetry is needed to make HPM work.
 
Even if retrofitted, both the F-35 and the Rafale will be limited in their radiated power by the size of the AESA. It seems to me, though I haven't actually verified this, that the F-35 can accommodate a slightly larger array, which would give it a minor advantage. But I'd say the system to watch out for is the E-10 AESA, as with its large number of active elements it can touch things a lot further out with a good bit of power. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that in addition to denying airspace to anything unhardened within 100 miles, it will also have capabilities against ballistic missile warhead guidance and fuse systems.
 
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VelocityVector       12/23/2008 2:56:29 PM
. . . Rafale has its own warp drive, photon torpedos, phasers and a stealth cloak by SPECTRA.
You neglected to mention that Rafale pilots are trained to shoot energy beams from their eyes.  We here will choose to ignore this oversight, pun, given the holiday season ;>)  Take care, all, including Froggie gamers.  The French countryside is especially beautiful this time of year, so feel free to step away from the keyboard and get out there.

v^2
 
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