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China Has Long Eyes For U.S. Carriers

November 28, 2008: China appears to be developing an over-the-horizon (OTH) radar that can spot large ships (like American aircraft carriers) as far as 3,000 kilometers away, and use this information to guide ballistic missiles to the area,. Such radars have long been used to detect ballistic missile launches, and approaching heavy bombers. Some OTH radars have been modified to take advantage of the flat surface of an ocean, to pick up large objects, like ships. Cheaper and more powerful computers enable such OTH radars to more accurately identify ships thousands of kilometers away.

China's principal weapon would be their DF-21 ballistic missile, equipped with a high-explosive warhead and a guidance system that can home in and hit a aircraft carrier at sea. The DF-21 has a range of 1800 kilometers and normally hauls a 300 kiloton nuclear warhead. It's a two stage, 15 ton, solid fuel rocket that could carry a half ton penetrating, high-explosive warhead, along with the special guidance system (a radar and image recognition system).

It is believed that the Chinese have reverse engineered, reinvented or stolen the 1970s technology that went into the U.S. Pershing ballistic missile. This 7.5 ton U.S. Army missile also had an 1,800 kilometers range, and could put its nuclear warhead within 30 meters of its aim point. This was possible because the guidance system had its own radar. This kind of accuracy made the Russians very uncomfortable, as it made their command bunkers vulnerable. The Russians eventually agreed to a lot of nuclear and missile disarmament deals in order to get the Pershings decommissioned in the 1980s. 

The Chinese have long been rumored to have a system like this, but there have been no tests. If the Chinese do succeed in creating a "carrier killer" version of the DF-21, the U.S. Navy can modify its Aegis anti-missile system to protect carriers against such attacks. There are also electronic warfare options, to blind the DF-21 radar. Another problem the Chinese will have is getting a general idea of where the target carrier is before they launch the DF-21. This is not impossible, but can be difficult.

China is developing the technologies, and it's only a matter of time before they can actually do it, or at least try to.

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HERALD1357    Well.   11/28/2008 6:11:18 AM
Let's see, the chosen blob detector will have a threshold detect of 2500-3500 kilometers depending on local and solar weather conditions. You need two of them to base range  the blob for a firing solution, then the chosen rocket will fire into ascent before it flops over well over the radar horizon cutoff sight-line of some of the defending radars. 360 to 500 seconds ballistic trajectory is the rocket fly-out. Target dodge is 15-18 meters per second   5,400 > 9,000 meters is the dodge radius as the Mach 8+ warhead[s] plunge[s]. Said Mach 8+ wearhead[s] has to hit an area 300 meters long x 100 meters wide.
 
Meaning the PRCs will use inevitably nuclear warheads to make sure they kill a carrier, because the best for which they can hope is a near miss with their crap technology, even if they salvoe their rockets .......who writes these articles?  
 
Herald

 
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jak267       11/28/2008 7:22:33 AM
"and guidance system that can home in"
 
Just because it's ballistically launched doesn't mean that the final stage has to remain ballistic.

 
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HERALD1357       11/28/2008 7:47:13 AM

"and guidance system that can home in"

 

Just because it's ballistically launched doesn't mean that the final stage has to remain ballistic.




The killbody at Mach 8+, for the rocket  described, which has never shown any aerodynamic maneuvering ability at all, is most definitely not going to have 150,000 gees of side SHOVE forces that allow an offset of more than 1000 meters in the last 25000 meters of plunge. That is ten seconds of  trajectory flight to correct for its final onboard radar imager to update, plunging down in a crossing shot against a frantically dodging target.
 
You expect me to believe that guff that the PRCs can do this? That is an order of magnitude harder than trying to hit a satellite in orbit-especially against decoys, jamming, and a particle beam weapon which should be available to us by the time those clowns figure out how to just get their blob detectors to work!
 
Herald
 
 

 
Quote    Reply

warpig       11/28/2008 11:31:32 AM


The killbody at Mach 8+, for the rocket  described, which has never shown any aerodynamic maneuvering ability at all, is most definitely not going to have 150,000 gees of side SHOVE forces that allow an offset of more than 1000 meters in the last 25000 meters of plunge. That is ten seconds of  trajectory flight to correct for its final onboard radar imager to update, plunging down in a crossing shot against a frantically dodging target.

You expect me to believe that guff that the PRCs can do this? That is an order of magnitude harder than trying to hit a satellite in orbit-especially against decoys, jamming, and a particle beam weapon which should be available to us by the time those clowns figure out how to just get their blob detectors to work!


 

If the carrier is 2500km from the OTHB radar (and you can see the receive array of one on Google at 313715N 1115500E) then it may be only about 2000km from the CSS-5 launcher.  If it takes merely 60 seconds for us to detect the launch, figure out at least the rough trajectory enough to realize it's a potential threat to the fleet, issue at least a general warning to the carrier, and have the carrier begin going to flank speed and evasive manuevers, that leaves about 225sec remaining time-of-flight if it averages M8. The evasive manuevers aren't really a radius, of course, but more of a curved-fan-shape from its initial heading.  The missile will try to acquire the target as it is coasting over the top and coming downhill, and possibly the bus can make some corrections already, at least to make sure the bus gets to the right point to deploy the RV at any rate.  The RV itself may very well follow (according to Chinese literature and wishful thinking) a sort of roller-coaster path that brings it down somewhat short of the target, but then in the stratosphere initiates a pitch-up maneuver that will level it off, extend its range out to the target, and slow it down.  Now as it actually approaches its terminal attack descent point, its kill basket is wider as it can manuever more easily at its lower terminal speed (maybe something more like M4). That's the theory, and that's why I love to see the great progress we're making with the SM-2/3/6 family.  I still amintain there is a sweet spot (or at least a least sour spot) for the Chinese over the next few years where they actually have their best opportunity to take taiwan.  I think by the time we get into the 20teens the opening in their window of opportunity, such as it ever was, will actually begin closing again.


 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       11/28/2008 8:55:31 PM
Could OTH radar actively ping a ship for the BM warhead to home in on?  As for simulations, I doubt the Chinese would do a live fire test. The Russians and Japanese would be up in arms as well. Instead, the PLA will focus on developing computer simulations no matter how many man hours and computing power it would take.  The PLA does not want to show its hand.
 
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verong       11/28/2008 11:34:14 PM

Could OTH radar actively ping a ship for the BM warhead to home in on?  As for simulations, I doubt the Chinese would do a live fire test. The Russians and Japanese would be up in arms as well. Instead, the PLA will focus on developing computer simulations no matter how many man hours and computing power it would take.  The PLA does not want to show its hand.



Hey there,
 
What if the Chinese look at it this way: deterant: by showing they can hit a carrier then they may forces the US Navy to rethink what its' responce would be to a invasion of Taiwan
 
Sincerely,
 
Keith
 
Quote    Reply

WarNerd       11/29/2008 4:07:57 AM
The author needs to be more consistent
China appears to be developing an over-the-horizon (OTH) radar that can spot large ships (like American aircraft carriers) as far as 3,000 kilometers away, and use this information to guide ballistic missiles to the area.

and later

Another problem the Chinese will have is getting a general idea of where the target carrier is before they launch the DF-21. This is not impossible, but can be difficult.

Now, the writer may just mean that the OTH radar cannot supply an accurate enough position by itself to launch a DF-21 with a reasonable chance of success, which is quite likely, but this is not clearly stated.
 
Quote    Reply

HERALD1357    Let's pick this apart.   11/29/2008 5:56:03 AM





The killbody at Mach 8+, for the rocket  described, which has never shown any aerodynamic maneuvering ability at all, is most definitely not going to have 150,000 gees of side SHOVE forces that allow an offset of more than 1000 meters in the last 25000 meters of plunge. That is ten seconds of  trajectory flight to correct for its final onboard radar imager to update, plunging down in a crossing shot against a frantically dodging target.



You expect me to believe that guff that the PRCs can do this? That is an order of magnitude harder than trying to hit a satellite in orbit-especially against decoys, jamming, and a particle beam weapon which should be available to us by the time those clowns figure out how to just get their blob detectors to work!







 


If the carrier is 2500km from the OTHB radar (and you can see the receive array of one on Google at 313715N 1115500E) then it may be only about 2000km from the CSS-5 launcher.  If it takes merely 60 seconds for us to detect the launch, figure out at least the rough trajectory enough to realize it's a potential threat to the fleet, issue at least a general warning to the carrier, and have the carrier begin going to flank speed and evasive manuevers, that leaves about 225sec remaining time-of-flight if it averages M8. 
 
The average DATE cycle for then defense to complete  a solution is 45-120 seconds. From what we've seen the USN do recently, we have to assume that the published AEGIS AN/SPY 1 radar ranges are horse manure. Those radars can see deep into space. I would not be surprised if the radars would see the DF-21s launch in the boost phase as those rockets climb above the radar horizon. Once again weather dictates actual radar performance. You can't get away fr4om atmospheric conductivity or background interference from extra-radiating sources no matter what type of radar or noise filter you use to discriminate your signal.
 
The evasive manuevers aren't really a radius, of course, but more of a curved-fan-shape from its initial heading.
 
The footprint of the killbody fall is an oval with its long axis in the direction of trajectory and the drift error dependend on north south divergence induced by planwetary rotation. The target will dodge insidfe that oval. Its track may be a curl, but that track depends on the size o0f the salvo and the spread of the warheads detected. It on an average will displece 3000 meters off the aimpoint.
 
 The missile will try to acquire the target as it is coasting over the top and coming downhill, and possibly the bus can make some corrections already, at least to make sure the bus gets to the right point to deploy the RV at any rate.
 
 :?????????????????????????????????????????
 
Who has a radar that small and a powersource that concentrated that the rocket can look downrange 1000 kilometers on the slant? If the rocket carries a blob detector akin to that at all, it will be akin to our best current aircraft combat radars which mass all up almost a TONNE when you add the computers and the refrigeration. That type radar will look at most about 500 kilometers, if the PRCs are lucky.  Most likely the radar  will be descent phase capable only and will be able to see only as far as the radar you would expect for an RV to carry. {The PRCs have the ionization layer rewentry problem to solve to make such a radar work.].
 
Pershing II was the model that tried to solve this problem almost thorty years ago. It used an image mqpping radar that correlated the terrain reflection it sawe with a snapshopt its dumb computer carried. Worked, but the bomb could only see within the predicted drop basket and could only see and shove sideways within the last 20 seconds of descent. We are discussing corrections of dozens or maybe of 100 meters to hit the final aimpoint which did not move at all. Mister Carrier is not sitting still.  
 
 The RV itself may very well follow (according to Chinese literature and wishful thinking) a sort of roller-coaster path that brings it down somewhat short of the target, but then in the stratosphere initiates a pitch-up maneuver that will level it off, extend its range out to the target, and slow it down.  
 
If that is the ludricrous case then its clay pigeon time with STANDARD having quite a field day
 
Now as it actually approaches its terminal attack descent point, its kill basket is wider as it can manuever more easily at its lower terminal speed (maybe something more like M4). That's the theory, and that's why I love to see the great progress we're making with the SM-2/3/6 family.  
 
Mach 4 at high altitude means 1960s worst case SAM solutions as applied against Russian high speed AShMs. Tough but not impossible then, easier a bit now.
 
I still maintain there is a sweet spot (or at least a least sour spot) for the Chinese over the next few years where they actually have their best opportunity to take taiwan.  I think by the time we get into the 20teens the opening in their window of opportunity, such as it ever was, will actually begin closing again.

It could be closing now as they enter into initial economic collapse. Laying off ten million workers has to hurt-even them.
 
 
Herald




 
Quote    Reply

FJV    Yawn (again)   12/2/2008 1:41:19 PM
The over the horizon radar will be useful in the role a volume search radar as a part of a complete C4I system with of a lot of other combined equipment (if the Chinese are competent).
 
It is useless to consider this radar as seperate without taking the complete (future?) Chinese C4I system into account.  I haven't seen anyone do this in the article or this thread. Even worse I haven't really seen anyone mention this, and to be honest I'm the amateur here.
 
The OTOH radar will make it easier for other equipment that is combined with it to attack US carriers. The other equipment having to search an entire ocean versus having to search an area where the OTOH radar has detected a carrier group.


 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

HERALD1357       12/2/2008 2:57:26 PM

The over the horizon radar will be useful in the role a volume search radar as a part of a complete C4I system with of a lot of other combined equipment (if the Chinese are competent).

 I called that OTHR a blob detector for a reason. The returns will be a smear solution.

It is useless to consider this radar as separate without taking the complete (future?) Chinese C4I system into account.  I haven't seen anyone do this in the article or this thread. Even worse I haven't really seen anyone mention this, and to be honest I'm the amateur here.

Once the DF-21 leaves its launch pad, the C41 is almost academeic as any command guidance to the rocket is a hack exploit.  I'd want to avoid that if owas the system designer. Americans are good at that kind of spoof.

The OTOH radar will make it easier for other equipment that is combined with it to attack US carriers. The other equipment having to search an entire ocean versus having to search an area where the OTOH radar has detected a carrier group.
 
Ah you mean those H-6 suicide planes and those mythical Chinese RORsat blob detectors? A RORsat gives you only twenty minutes coverage of the battlespace each pass. The H-6 is a second rate Bear without the Down Beat or ther formidable Russian ECM suite.. 

I restricted my comments to what can be discerned or coinfirmed.
They aren't ten feet tall. In fact they are technologically rather short. There are a lot of them, though, which means you have to service a lot of targets efficiently with the few munitions and systems we have.
 
Herald
 
 
 

 
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flyingarty    China   12/2/2008 4:15:06 PM
If China sinks a US carrier, Beijing becomes a sheet of glass, and I think they are bright enough to know that. Flyingarty.
 
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warpig       12/2/2008 4:47:05 PM

If China sinks a US carrier, Beijing becomes a sheet of glass, and I think they are bright enough to know that. Flyingarty.


 
Absolutely disagree, in the context of the scenario that I had in mind, which is coming to the aid of Taiwan or other Far East nations in some sort of conventional war over Taiwan or a similar tussle over islands near China.  However, in that context, if China nukes a carrier then many Chinese military targets at sea and maybe even inland where directly associated with the weapon system used to nuke the carrier(s) become glass.  However, any nuclear strikes on China itself (if any) would definitely need to not be threatening to China's strategic nuclear assets and the means to control them.
 
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flyingarty    China becomes glass   12/3/2008 8:22:16 AM
Well reasoned and I tend to agree. My take, firing on US Carrier is an act of war. Despite the fear- mongering, that is a war that China does not want. flyingarty.
 
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