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France Does A Stryker Thing

September 9, 2009: France has ordered a second batch of its new VBCI armored vehicle. This order, of 332 vehicles, brings the total bought so far to 630. Eventually, the French Army wants 700 VBCIs. This purchase is part of a trend. Like most other European nations, France is replacing some of their tracked armored infantry vehicles with wheeled ones (like the U.S. Stryker). The VBCI is an 8x8, 25 ton vehicle with a crew of three, plus eight troops in the back. Armament consists of a 25mm autocannon, and a 7.62mm machine-gun. Like the Stryker, the VBCI has very up-to-date sensors and electronics. France is getting 550 of the infantry version, and 150 command post (more electronics, fewer people) versions. The BCI will replace tracked AMX10 infantry vehicles. The VBCI vehicles cost about $5.5 million each, and first deliveries began last year.

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Chris 9/9/2009 1:53:57 PM

France doing a Stryker thing? It isn't like the US was the first nation to move away from tracked vehicles

to save weight and money...

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LB 9/9/2009 3:16:21 PM

It's also not like France has not been operating wheeled APC's and quite good wheeled armored cars for decades. Wheeled APC's go back a long way. Most Soviet era units were motorized infantry carried in wheeled APC's.

Modern wheeled vehicles can have excellent mobility but you still can't go everywhere you can go with tracks. People can and do debate wheels vs tracks all day. My observation has always been that when most nations design MBT's with wheels instead of tracks then we'll all know wheels win. So far of course there has never been a wheeled MBT or a wheeled D9 (that can do what a D9 or similar vehicle does).

So it's all well and good to save money with cheaper wheeled armored vehicles right up to the point an enemy exploits your lack of mobility and/or lack of armor protection. The trend toward more wheeled armored vehicles has been obvious; however, the trend to toward heavier and more heavily armored IFV's and heavy APC's has also been going on even though it seems to generate far less notice. The German Puma is 40+ tons vs the 30 ton Marder it replaces, Israel's new APC is 60 tons, etc.

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doggtag a recurring problem we see here.... 9/9/2009 3:28:53 PM

...is that a few to many individuals (and not just on this website, but a common blemish here nonetheless) automatically interpret any AFV with 8 wheels to be some kind of Stryker knock-off, when in fact the Stryker itself is little more than a computerized Piranha, a family of 4x4, 6x6, 8x8, and even 10x10 wheeled AFVs that have been around for some time (though no where near as long as Russian BTR series).

Give it time, and we're going to see another frontpage article here

calling the new Terrex "the Stryker that Singapore's building",

or even the Freccia being labeled "the Stryker that Italy's building",

when in fact, the only thing either indigenous design has in common with any Stryker is the fact that, yep, 8 wheels.

Shameful really, to group all such vehicles with the same moniker.

Notice we don't call all tanks here Abrams, T-90s, or Shermans...

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jwilly48519 Actually, France was first... 9/9/2009 10:22:15 PM

I believe France had the first 8 wheeled all terrain A/C...the Panhard 201 AM40, which got as far as a running, combat-capable prototype with a production contract issued as of June, 1940.

It of course became the EBR70 FL10 after the war. And, the EBR70 led directly to the EBR-ETT, one of the first 8 wheeled all terrain IFVs.

The EBR70 and EBR-ETT are displayed at Saumur.

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doggtag it isn't a case of who made 8x8s first... 9/10/2009 9:35:28 AM

...but rather the sad state of affairs here that someone who has the keys to write SP's front page articles thinks that "if it has 8 wheels, it's some kinda Stryker thing, or a Stryker knock off",

when in all factual reality, that isn't the real-world case at all.

This is an error we've seen not just this time, but often.

Apparently china even makes Strykers, and Patria apparently offered ~~AMVs~~ some kinda "Scandanavian Stryker" to Croatia, among others...

Yeah, maybe it sounds like a petty peeve, but one expects a little more accuracy here from the articles.

Not all of us here are experts in the field, and certainly many of us don't run this great site and are here only by priviledge and not by right, but even we can see these annoying little errors.

These are the kinds of things that detract from credibility.

It's OK to call them "Stryker-like", but implying they are some kind of actual Stryker variant, version, or locally-produced knock-off, is just plain dis-service to the community.

...although, there are times that I wonder if these "errors are done intentionally just so the PowersThatBe can stir up debate on a given topic....

So far as I've seen in other countries' 8x8 AFVs, they actually mean the "Fighting" part of what the "F" in AFV stands for, and actually arm their vehicles accordingly: to fight.

The actual original Stryker is little more than an over-glorified, computer-dependent APC, whereas a lot of these latest developments are full-fledged fighting vehicles, not troop taxis that can't defend themselves at the expense of its own troops' weapons, or have adhoced dated weapons concepts thrown onto them that are inferior to a lot of the latest offerings suitable for similar-sized vehicles.

For the money the US spends on a Stryker, and compared to what quite a few other nations have developed along similar lines, we should be getting a lot more (capability, protection, firepower) that what we are.

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LB Sd.Kfz.231 9/14/2009 5:15:23 PM

The Sd.Kfz.231 family of 8 wheeled armored cars, derived from a 6 wheel version, was introduced in 1937. The recon version with 50mm L/60 was, Kfz 234, was called Puma. The eight wheeled Kfz 231 series served from the first to last day of WWII.

I'm not familiar with the design history of the EBR and I be interested in a citation regarding the "Panhard 201 AM40" prototype and it's production contract. Especially since the EBR was introduced in 1954. The EBR ETT was an APC with a turreted 7.5mm mg and I believe never was used in service by France but may have been by Portugal and introduced in 1956.

The US also had a two different 8 wheeled armored cars developed during WWII. One of which had a contract for over 2,000 but only a few were delivered to Britain before they canceled the order while the other lost in competition to the M38. I'm not aware of any other 8 wheeled armored vehicle that got into service during WWII besides the 231 series. In any case France certainly has a long history of designing wheeled armored vehicles and calling the VBCI Stryker like is misleading given the Styker is an APC while the VBCI is actually replacing the AMX-10P IFV.

Interestingly the VBCI's turret with 25mm and coax mg is a one man turret. France has been fielding turrets that are too small for the role for getting close to 100 years now. At least the IFV gun is now stablized. Making the vehicle commander also the gunner has always been problematic.

I believe France had the first 8 wheeled all terrain A/C...the Panhard 201 AM40, which got as far as a running, combat-capable prototype with a production contract issued as of June, 1940.

It of course became the EBR70 FL10 after the war. And, the EBR70 led directly to the EBR-ETT, one of the first 8 wheeled all terrain IFVs.

The EBR70 and EBR-ETT are displayed at Saumur.

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C3I2 9/17/2009 4:58:17 AM

Does "US does a VAB thing" (Stryker) work for you guys? I mean its hardly the first, nor the last post or headline that is blatantly US centric.

Ref: link

As you can see, not even the board can handle the Aphostropes (etc.) involved in French armaments discussions.

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doggtag 9/17/2009 3:08:27 PM

Does "US does a VAB thing" (Stryker) work for you guys?

Yeesh!

C'mon now, seriously?

This is a VAB.

This is a Stryker.

Vast difference.

And it doesn't take a lot of post-high-school military expertise to see that,

so it isn't necessary to "dumb it down" so far as suggesting that an 8x8 armored car family is related to a 6x6 armored car family, both of two entirely different designs from entirely different nations

(VAB = France, whereas Stryker = US by way of Canada by way of Switzerland).

Suggesting the Stryker is more akin to the VBCI, Freccia, and Terrex is certainly understandable,

but a majority of us here are far beyond junior high school, and can cleanly see the VAB 6x6 is no where in comparison to the Stryker 8x8,

save only the facts that, yeah, they both got more than 4 wheels, and yeah, they both carry people inside and armament outside.

Overall baseline armor protection is about the same, more or less.

Advantage Stryker for all the Battlefield Internet goodness packed inside.

Advantage VAB if you like a lot of different turret designs and weapons calibers (and really must have C-130 compatibility).

...but that's if you want to get technically accurate.

2¢

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cwDeici 9/18/2009 12:35:53 AM

OK, I've sent in a petition to have Bluewings removed from the forum for aggravated trolling (flames, unsubstantiated statements and outright falsities reducing the quality of the board for subsequent years). Regardless of whether you find him entertaining or not I encourage you to a great degree to join this measure.

I was actually starting to see reasonable conversations about the Rafale and other topics on French matters until he reappeared.

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doggtag enouh with the floods already, please? 9/18/2009 6:45:14 AM

As much as it does get tiresome to see the flaming personal insults that go on in countless aircraft (and aircraft tech) threads,

is it really necessary to send such a "notice of petition requesting eviction" out to every other thread,

regardless of whether such posters have even contributed (or otherwise posted) there?

Seems to me, neither of our colorful Frenchmen has stormed in here to the armor boards decreeing 20,000 technical reasons why the VBCI is superior to the Stryker, why LeClerc is superior to any other MBT, or for that matter any French AFVs being the world standard,

nor do they stumbled drunkenly into any of the naval discussions crying why Scorpenes or whatever are the best subs out there or French surface vessels having superiorities over American kit,

nor are we seeing them trumpeting about how and why they think FELIN is superior to Land Warrior,

so is it really necessary to run into every thread/discussion room shouting "petition!" ?

If our "resident" Parisians are so annoying on other threads, why even acknowledge their presence at all?

It isn't hard to just totally skip over their posts altogether, is it?

As to how worked up those two have gotten a number of other posters obviously,

what was that old adage about never arguing with a fool?

I for one would welcome more debate in these armor threads as far as weighing one vehicle's technical merits (and firepower capabilities) against another's.

Seems we had a pretty decent WW2 tank debate go on for quite a while without people's childish personal attacking of each other for differences of opinion.

Sad, really.

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