NEW: Follow the Editorial Staff on
StrategyPage Twitter Link


GROUND COMBAT +

AIR COMBAT +

NAVAL OPERATIONS +

SPECIAL OPERATIONS +

HUMAN FACTORS +

SPECIAL WEAPONS +

WARFARE BY THE NUMBERS +

LOGISTICS +

TOOLS +


Visit StrategyPage's US Cavalry Store



Armor Article Index : Current 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009
 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics

The B-52 Of Armored Vehicles

July 21, 2009: The U.S. Army is having a really hard time figuring out what it's next tank will be like, and that's turned into a major problem. Recently, the Department of Defense forced the army to cancel its $150 billion FCS (Future Combat System) because it was too expensive, too vague and not very convincing. FCS included a replacement for all current armored vehicles. Now the army is pleading for a chunk of the lost FCS billions so that it can get to work on replacements for M-1 tank and the M-2 (IFV) Infantry Fighting Vehicle. The big problem is that the army really doesn't have a design for either of these replacement vehicles. The even bigger problem is that armored vehicle design has hit something of a plateau. There's really no exciting new, game-changing, concepts to justify a new tank or IFV.

Step back a moment and consider the brief history of armored fighting vehicles. These beasts are only about a century old (if you count armored cars, the tank didn't show up until 94 years ago.) The first tanks were crude, but in the 1920s and 30s, much progress was made. By the time World War II broke out in 1939, you would recognize the tanks. They had the same shape and function as today's tanks. All that's happened in the last 70 years is that tanks have gotten twice as heavy, and main gun caliber has gone from 50mm or 75mm, to 120mm or 125mm. Tanks got faster, and acquired computerized fire control, laser rangefinders and thermal imagers (to see through dust, smoke or darkness). As was the case during World War II, some armies had better tanks, while their opponents often simply had more. During World War II, and since, it's been learned that crew quality is crucial. The side with the better crews usually wins, even if they don't have the most powerful tanks.

Right now, the United States has one of the best tanks (the M-1) and the most combat experienced and well trained crews. How do you improve on that? As the army discovered with FCS, it's not easy. In fact, so far, it's been impossible. But he army is asking for five months to come up with an acceptable plan (and vehicle designs). The Secretary of Defense is inclined to let them try, but the army is facing long odds here. If you believe in miracles, the army has a shot. If you can perform miracles, the army needs you right away.

Otherwise, the army will continue refurbishing, and using, its 16,000 M-1s, M-2s and other armored combat vehicles. The 12,000 recently acquired MRAPs are armored vehicles, but not combat vehicles. The Department of Defense spent over $20 billion on MRAPs, to deal with a weapon (roadside bombs) that doesn't win wars, but does make it dangerous for American troops to drive around hostile neighborhoods. The MRAPs are only three percent of the army's vehicle fleet, and are likely to be given away or scrapped before they die of old age. The army doesn't want to use its M-1s and M-2s until they expire of old age, but unless there's a breakthrough in armored vehicle design, the M-1 is destined to become the B-52 of armored vehicles. It's hard to improve on, if not perfection, then very adequate. 

 

submit to reddit
Send Link to a Friend
Next Article MURPHY'S LAW: Why F-22s Are Losers


Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Sort in Reverse Order Posted

Pages: 1 2 3   NEXT
Rick9719    Light tank?   7/21/2009 6:50:08 AM
If they can't improve on the M-1 at the moment, maybe they should work on getting a decent light tank designed.  Maybe when they've got that done and in inventory they can go back and take another crack at improving the M-1.
 
Quote    Reply

JFKY    Rick   7/21/2009 9:10:45 AM
I am reminded of a great line about light tanks.
 
"There are two types of light tank.  Those that were popular in peace time, but failures in combat and all the rest."
 
Do we REALLY need a light tank?
 
Quote    Reply

Vulture       7/21/2009 9:23:15 AM
Unless you can give me a light tank that is 100% resistant from RPGs and 20MM (or less) cannon, don't bother.
 
/or I guess you could edit the Sheridan light tank from our collective knowledge and maybe we would agree to a new one ;)

 
 
Quote    Reply

SAE       7/21/2009 10:28:56 AM
Why make a new design? How about making new production of the old M-1 design to replace the worn ones instead. But if you want improved, how about just up-gunning the old M-1. Maybe 155mm? Call it the M-1 II.
 
Quote    Reply

JFKY    Rebuilds   7/21/2009 10:56:51 AM
Tend to "zero out" wear....so why produce more M-1's?  And why a 155 mm gun?  Assuming one could even be squeezed into the turret?  You lose lots of ammunition capacity, for what?  An inefficient SP Howitzer?  Hardly worth it, don't you think?
 
Quote    Reply

ker       7/21/2009 5:18:15 PM
What if the thing to do is to produce a product that can fill in for the M-1 in some circomstances and there by reduce the rate at which the M-1s wear out.  This entire line of thought dependes on being able to turn out the new vehical at a low cost and life time cost.  So you produce it as a tank for countrys that can't quite aford tanks and then offer a product that is already comming off (American) assembly lines to the US Army.  If bought they would go to units that already have M-1s and M-1 crews would deploy with them to areas where M-1 is pure over kill. 
 
Interior layout would be the same.  (This sacrifices the chance to incorporat IDF rear door idea.)  Armor would be much lighter.  More ceramic and no DU.  Air spaces in the armor could be used to carve peaces off projectile before stoping it.  You could get a level of protection that was good against every thing except dedecated and farely modern anti-tank weapons.  Go back down to a 105 gun.  Some patentons have been let on low weight metal tank treads called Ripsaw.  link and link and   link The power to weight ratio could stay about the same or get a little beter but still use off the shelf engines.  You might have one small engine for low demand and another high demand.  Of cource they can both be used at same time for maxim power.  This is easyer if you use electricity to drive treds. 
 
The whole justification for the idea is that you get a rig that will do what M-1's do in reduced threat sicuations but cost far less to deliver, oporate and bring home than an M-1.  The bonace prize is that the M-1's last longer because they get deployed less.  The new vehical should be so simeler in layout that it is a trainer vehical for the M-1 crews.  (Engine, gun and track maintanace excepted. Traficability would also differ.)
 
------------------------
 
Light tanks always look bad compaired to good medim tanks.  Problem is that nobody gets to put good medim tanks every where they would be helpful.  America is out of the light tank game but boy are we in love with heavy jeeps.
 
Quote    Reply

cwDeici       7/22/2009 3:42:15 AM
Light tanks are not meant for heavy combat. :)
 
durhh...
 
Quote    Reply

StobieWan       7/22/2009 4:08:32 AM
Always was one of the great "what if" questions - what if the US army had gotten over it's "Not invented here" syndrome and bought the Scorpion/Scimitar in quantity? Great scout vehicle, fast, low ground pressure, reasonable main armament...
 
As to replacing the M1, well, short of some mainland war in which there was time to ship out a few thousand M1's, and which then ground them up into razor blades, the US has enough hulls to refurb almost indefinitely.Short of a really serious threat emerging from some place, it's better than anything else on the planet (in terms of availability, crew capability and battle proven effectiveness)
 
Ian
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

doggtag    American light tracked AFV family   7/22/2009 7:58:51 AM
(rant mode ON)
 
I always liked the formerly-Alvis CVR(T) family, to include its newer Stormer brethren (stretched hull with a 6th road wheel).
I remember one of my first impressions of it was from, I believe, an Eagle magazine from the mid 1980s (I was still in high school, so before 1988).
I remember one mention of its low ground pressure being measured by where a Scorpion or Scimitar or one of them ran over an ink pen and didn't break it, then a wheeled vehicle ran over another ink pen and crushed the hell out of it.
This was further stated that the CVR(T)'s ground pressure didn't set off any pressure AT mines, and very few anti-personnel mines (which was a good thing: at under 10 tons and barely small arms-proof, the CVR(T)s would've been gutted by any AT nmines, and damaged a good bit by some anti-personnel mines and grenades).
 
For all its disdain, and the idiocy of that Sparks character, the M113 was the closest thing we could've had to a basic chassis and components for a similar US-developed CVR(T) family.
The Sheridan proved a miderable exercise in AFV development, even if some of the kinks were worked out (what other choice did the 82nd have, really?), but there were some other AFV models proposed around Sheridan chassis parts.
 
A better, newer option would've been (and I've hit on this before) a medium family of vehicles built around components of the Cadillac Gage/Textron Stingray light tank, the M8 AGS,
or even better, the M2/M3 Bradley and M270 MLRS chassis (share many common components).
 
The FCS was a stuff-up from the start.
Yeah, it pushed the technology limits and generated a lot of useful research into composite armors, hybrid drives, and other methods to improve AFVs, but for the most part Boeing shouldn't even have been involved in it (when's the last time Boeing ever built an effective and reliable AFV?).
But it was still too out-there-in-la-la-land to ever be produced in enough numbers at a reasonable cost to equip even half the BCTs it was envisioned for, and there was just no chance that with today's technology it was going to meet every original preferred requirement.
Stryker never fully measured up to its original claims, either: look at them now with that bird cage and numerous upgrades needed or planned to help it maintain its capabilities, suspension and electrical power generation being two key areas, with one suggestion that at originally designed for 38,000pounds, current Strykers can tip the scales at 52,000pounds.
 
Although nobody ever likes to admit it, the French are the ones who got wheeled AFV family development down to a good level, and the South Africans have effectively employed wheeled AFV families against numerous neighbors armed with tracked AFVs.
 
Problem is, I don't even think the US even knows want it even wants in a tank (or any tracked AFV family) anymore.
How does one actually improve, in revolutionary terms, from the Abrams, when advances in technology can just easily keep it effective every coming generation (providing the funding is available to do so) ?
 
Something along the lines of Germany's Puma (maxing out at around 43 tons with uparmor might be a reasonable figure to expect), but offering more than the CV90 family (seldom tip the scales past 32 tons, and can be armed with a 120mm tank-killing cannon), would be a good medium class family to aim for.
These would be the RPG-proof AFVs that can withstand a majority of AFV autocannon fire, and do most of the peacetime training work and a majority of warfare only unless the really heavy armor of the Abrams was needed to go toe-to-toe with other heavily-armored AFVs.
But the kicker here is, a lot of spun-out FCS tech has been developed that can, in some instances, get us around the need for needing sheer armor to fend against other MBTs.
Principally, the MRM Medium Range Munition program that developed a smart shell for 120mm cannons that was to have a range out to 12km could negate ever again needing to close within firing range of an enemy's MBTs.
New generations of other precision weapons relying on tandem shaped charges, EFPs, and even sheer KE are developed that are making MBTs more vulnerable (but the need for a lot of passive armor protection will never go away).
IEDs are just too unpredictable:
there's no guarantee when you'll run into a small several-kgs one (that barely scratches many AFVs)
versus the big buried or vehicle-borne ones composed of a few hundred pounds of artillery shells and fuel that can gut even the most heavily-armored MBT.
 
Would a US light tank family really fair any less successful than we have done so far with Strykers, M2/M3s, uparmored Humvees, and armed MRAPs?
The FCS wasn't it. 27 tons of advanced technology wasn't the solution to everything (especially not at an expected production cost approaching $1million per ton of vehicle).
More passive armor is needed if we expect it to take over much of the brute work from heavy MBTs that take large logistics support chains.
But as FCS showed, you're not going to be able to get a 20-ton tank that can function on near-enough equal terms as an MBT, not without capable passive armor (no APS, Active Protection System, has been built or is in development that can intercept IEDs as effectively as it can ATGMs and RPGs).
And light tanks will not survive any better that Humvees did when they're made to John-Wayne their way into urban environments where they can be squeezed into RPG ambushes and IED-laden choke points.
 
The more open and rural areas suit lighter armored vehicles (where they have room to use speed in maneuver)
better than in urban areas (just watch the Israelis to know that).
Panama and Grenada were done successfully enough with lighter armored vehicles than MBTs.
But a 10-20ton family of AFVs would've been slaughtered in many instances where US Abrams and Bradleys surged in to seize and secure Kuwaiti and Iraqi territories.
 
Listening to the Canadians and others, it's already being suggested that the US might not be as successful with the Strykers in Afghanistan ans they have been in Iraq, especially considering that Afghanistan just doesn't have the highway and road infrastructure of oil-rich Iraq.
It's about rougher terrains being favored more by tracks than wheels, as well as heavier armors that tracked vehicles can carry to a fight.
 
But then again, neither Iraq nor Afghanistan have the US going toe-to-toe with anyone's latest-generation of 105-125mm armed MBTs and AFVs equipped with modern ATGMs and highly-capable autocannon.
 
It's hard to do this debate on what armored vehicle (light, medium, heavy) best suits the US Army (or the best all-around combination of each) when the US Army is still trying to figure that out for itself.
Yeah, the stuff now works effectively enough,
but we are foolish not to continue evolving our AFV designs and further improving their capabilities.
 
If anything, we need to continually maintain an effective defense industrial base.
If we let that slip away, we'd better hope the money we saved from not being able to afford expensive weapons that we can't even produce anymore, can be used to buy-off anyone who threatens us in the future.
There is never going to be worldwide peace (not unless mankind goes extinct).
As long as there are different religions, different ideologies, different goals of seizing power and influence, 
social castes of rich people in power and poor people who aren't,
and as long as people even look different from each other, there will always be a need to maintain effective militaries, equipped with the latest capabilities, as deterrent against the latest capabilities your potential adversaries could have.
 
The success of a light tank design could boil down to how effectively they are used in a given scenario.
The German Army uses Weisel weapons carriers in Afghanistan, and every one of them hasn't been shot to pieces (and Weisels can barely protect against small arms fire).
The British also used some of the CVR(T) family in both Desert Storm and today's War on Terrror operations, and they haven't lost every last one to IEDs, RPGs, ATGMs, and gunfire,
nor was the loss rate of crews terribly exponentially higher than other vehicles.
Same goes for a number of wheeled AFV designs.
Even the US has shown that even minimal armor applied to logistics vehicles can make for effective deterrent (gun trucks)against adversaries who mostly only have small arms and the occasional RPG.
It's all in how they're applied in the field.
 
 
(rant mode OFF)
 
Quote    Reply

flamingknives       7/22/2009 4:28:05 PM
Why should an armoured vehicle be proof against 20mm fire? What threat has a 20mm cannon? 30mm, 14.5mm or 12.7mm makes sense, possibly even 25mm. Then you have to specify the type of ammunition. AP? APDS? APFSDS?

And RPG-7 proof for a light vehicle? Never mind that there are a large variety of RPG-7 warheads with greatly differing performance, but even the least is a powerful weapon and 100% protection is impossible. Even the M1 isn't 100% proof against RPG-7.
Poorly thought out requirements
 
Quote    Reply

JFKY    Light Tasnks & Heavy Combat   7/22/2009 7:08:26 PM
What if the light tanks don't go to the heavy combat, but the heavy combat comes to them?  How does one guarantee that the light tanks, say of the 82 Abn. don't get involved in heavy combat?  Leave them at home, leave the whole division at home?  "Whoa, we'd send the 504th Infantry, BUT there's the possibility of heavy/urban/close combat and the light tanks aren't up to that; so scrub sending the 504th or the 82nd."  Or do we just not send the light tanks, but send the 11B's any way?
 
Your suggestion reminds me of the Armour Board's "reasoning" in re: the "proper role" of tanks in WWII.  Tanks did NOT fight tanks, ergo US tanks did not need a high velocity weapon, or weapons over 75 mm.  The declaration that tanks did not fight other tanks was nice, but apparently the Germans never read US doctrine and so US tanks were consistently confronting tanks, IN SPITE OF doctrinal statements to the contrary.  This new statement in re: light tanks and heavy combat reminds me of that statement.  Nice but what if the combat doesn't read US doctrine and shows up on the light tank's door step any way?
 
Quote    Reply

StobieWan       7/23/2009 4:06:39 AM
Well, the electric armour tested in the UK may well do just that - I've seen a test vehicle (think it  was an FV432 but can't recall) take three consecutive hits from an RPG-7 in rapid order and shrug them off.
 
Really depends on what you want the vehicle to be capable of. The light tank as an offensive weapon has been discredited for decades but a decent fast recon vehicle, smaller than an M2/M3 for instance, with some useful fire support role can be good.
 
Ian
 
 
Why should an armoured vehicle be proof against 20mm fire? What threat has a 20mm cannon? 30mm, 14.5mm or 12.7mm makes sense, possibly even 25mm. Then you have to specify the type of ammunition. AP? APDS? APFSDS?




And RPG-7 proof for a light vehicle? Never mind that there are a large variety of RPG-7 warheads with greatly differing performance, but even the least is a powerful weapon and 100% protection is impossible. Even the M1 isn't 100% proof against RPG-7.

Poorly thought out requirements


 
Quote    Reply

chuck00       7/23/2009 10:08:22 AM
Well for starters you have to start with a concept what do you want your armor vehicles to do in the future, tank, APV, big gun etc. Maybe what the Army needs to look at is two things, firepower and getting solders to the battlefield fast and safely. My suggestion, look at modifing the M-1 into a possible AFV. reduce the gun size, or automate most of the functions, make the back end a place where solders(8-10) can ride to the battlefield. Look athe Isreal tank and AFV for examples and maybe just maybe you can think outside the box. Be inventive and daring instead of static. Remember you can't win with you don't try.
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

forester       7/23/2009 1:05:35 PM

Well for starters you have to start with a concept what do you want your armor vehicles to do in the future, tank, APV, big gun etc. Maybe what the Army needs to look at is two things, firepower and getting solders to the battlefield fast and safely. My suggestion, look at modifing the M-1 into a possible AFV. reduce the gun size, or automate most of the functions, make the back end a place where solders(8-10) can ride to the battlefield. Look athe Isreal tank and AFV for examples and maybe just maybe you can think outside the box. Be inventive and daring instead of static. Remember you can't win with you don't try.

 Two issues with your post.  First, you're making the assumption that the Army hasn't been inventive and daring in its planning.  To the contrary, I think that its performance over the past 20 years proves otherwise.  Furthermore, just because something is different does not automatically mean it's better (or conversely, just because something has been around a while doesn't mean it's obsolete).  With FCS, the Army toyed with the idea of lightly armored gizmo-laden vehicles, and most testing - and experience - has shown that when the shooting starts nothing beats having a lot of heavy armor between you and the enemy's sabot rounds.
 
Second, as a former M1 creman, I can attest that there isn't much more that can be 'automated' to make room for infantry in a tank.  You could lost the loader in favor of an autoloader, but gains you room for one soldier.  It also costs you an extra man to help with maintenance, pulling security, switching off with the driver, etc.  IMO all of these tradeoffs of going to an autoloader far outweigh any benefits of freeing up a little space.  IOW the loader does far more than simply load the main gun, and that's something often missed in these debates, especially by people that have never set foot inside a tank let alone worked and fought in them (not accusing you of this point, Chuck, just pointing out how often I see the autoloader argument raised).  When you get down to it, an AFV is either an infantry carrier, or a tank.  Any hybrid strips the best benefits off the vehicle from either class because you can't have all things in a single vehicle.  If you want to make the argument for an M2/3 with a bigger gun, make that argument.  However, making the argument to strip down a tank to fit some infantry in it has never made much sense to me.

Just my $.02

 


 
Quote    Reply

forester       7/23/2009 1:06:56 PM
BTW, apologies for any typos, etc in the previous post.  Was in a hurry at lunch time.
 
Quote    Reply
Pages: 1 2 3   NEXT





New Strategy - Wargames at Discount Prices
1.Modern Air Power: War Over the Middle East
2.Commander: Napoleon at War
3.Close Combat: Watch am Rhein
4.Gallic Wars
5.Fast Action Battle: The Bulge

100+ Computer and Board games all with free shipping.
 
 
 

StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2009StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy