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KC-135, KC-767, KC-30 or KC-777?

January 31, 2007: The U.S. Air Force is still looking for aircraft to replace over 500 aging ( 40 years old, or older) KC-135 tankers. At the moment, there are three prime candidates. The leading one is the KC-767, which is already been selected by Italy and Japan. This aircraft is based on the Boeing 767-200 airliner, which sells for about $120 million. Boeing developed the KC-767, at a cost of nearly a billion dollars, on its own. Boeing also developed the original KC-135 tanker in the 1950s. All 732 KC-135s were built between 1956 and 1965. 

Over the decades, the KC-135 fleet has undergone constant repair and reconstruction. New engines, and new structural components have been added, as older items wore out, or showed signs of wearing out. Currently, some 40 percent of the KC-135s are out of action for maintenance problems. In theory, an aircraft can be continually rebuilt and kept in flying condition. But the air force, and some commercial air lines, are finding that the maintenance problems multiply and become unpredictable as the aircraft get older and, after a while, the downtime for maintenance is more trouble than it's worth. For example, the hundred oldest KC-135s spend an average of 80 days a year undergoing major repairs. However, when you do the math, you find that overhauling and maintaining the current KC-135 fleet would be about $10 billion cheaper than buying new 767s.  There is risk in keeping 40 year old aircraft flying, but the safety record of the KC-135 remains excellent. Newer isn't always better, but it is often more expensive.

The four engine KC-135 carries 90 tons of fuel and can transfer up to 68 tons. Consider that a B-52 carries over 140 tons of jet fuel, an F-15, over five tons. A KC-767 carries about as much fuel as the KC-135. The European firm Airbus, is offering the KC-30, based on the Airbus 330-300, which normally sells for $160 million each. The KC-30 carries 20 percent more fuel than the KC-767, and more cargo pallets (26 versus 19). 

The KC-135 has long made itself useful carrying cargo and passengers, as well as fuel, and both the KC-767 and KC-30 have more capacity for this. Another option is a tanker based on the larger Boeing 777-200LR, which sells for about $230 million each. This KC-777 would have 65 percent more fuel capacity than the KC-767, and 95 percent more cargo capacity. Bigger is sometimes better if you're a flying gas station. The KC-767 was developed partly because it is about the same size as the KC-135 (wingspan is 156 feet, ten more than the KC-135). The wingspan of the KC-777 would be 213 feet. Moreover, it would take about three years to develop the KC-777, while the KC-767 is ready to go now, and the KC-30 will enter service with Australia next year. Using the KC-777 would reduce the number of tankers needed from 179 to 120, or less, and be cheaper in the long run. So many choices, and no one in authority is, as yet, willing to make a decision on this.

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reefdiver       1/31/2007 1:22:43 PM
I look to see the USAF end up with a mix of KC-767 to replace the 135's, and KC-777's to replace the KC-10's. It would seem a mix would be better. As mentioned in the article neither the KC-767 or KC-30 could fully refuel a single B-52. I find it interesting there's been little talk of a direct replacement for the KC-10's.
 
Interesting to note, as per previous thread, that the USAF's RFP seems to favor the smaller KC-767 over the larger and more expensive KC-30, and thus the possible Northrup/EADS pullout from bidding. Personally, I think this "threat" by Northrup is simply designed to garner support for changing the RFP to give the KC-130 a better chance.  McCain of course will be yelling "we need competition" all over Washington. 
 
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bropous       1/31/2007 2:01:31 PM
Well, it's a no-brainer for me, but then again, I'm not attempting to purchase votes for my re-election.
 
The whole concept of using Congresszombies to make decisions for purchases of military technology is like giving a crack fiend twnety dollars to buy a gallon of milk.  Maybe we need to establish a commission of ex-military folks, with a few active-duty privates, a few active duty non-coms not in charge of those privates, to make tough decisions like this.  You can bet your desert boots that when the decision actually comes down, it will be because some high-powered senator made a deal to keep the production in his/her own district, instead of making a decision based upon what is best for the security interests of the nation.
 
It makes sense: The KC-777.  Hands down.  But some lard-butt on Crapitol Hill will decide either to refit the KC-135 fleet because the refit facilities are in his/her/its (OH, I forgot the Democrats' voter base, gotta leave room for transsexual congresspersonages) district, or it will be the KC-747 because THAT Congresszombie had more sway on the Armed Services Committee.
 
It is a miracle that weapons systems such as the M1 Abrams, AH-64 Apache, V-22 Osprey, F-22 Raptor, MLRS system, or even the DDX get funded or even built considering the short-sightedness of Congresspervs and their willingness to sacrifice military preparedness for their own selfish re-election prospects.
 
I am STILL waiting to hear WHY the US 10th Mountain Division is stationed at Ft drum, NY, instead of at Ft Carson, Colorado.  Not the POLITICAL decision to call a unit stationed at 2,100ft above sea level a Mountain Division whilst the 3rd ACR is called a MECHANIZED unit while its home base (Ft Carson, CO) is at 6,300ft...
 
THE FRIGGING 10TH MOUNTAIN DIVISION NEEDS TO BE BASED AT LEAST 6,000ft ABOVE SEA LEVEL TO BE CALLED A MOUNTAIN DIVISON!  SHEESH!!!!!!
 
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reefdiver       1/31/2007 4:40:39 PM


THE FRIGGING 10TH MOUNTAIN DIVISION NEEDS TO BE BASED AT LEAST 6,000ft ABOVE SEA LEVEL TO BE CALLED A MOUNTAIN DIVISON!  SHEESH!!!!!!

Put'em in Leadville, CO (10,000ft). Have them ocassionally go over to Idaho Springs and run the road to the top of Mt. Evans (14,000+ft). After a year in Leadville building up extra red blood cells they'll kick butt at sea level in the Gulf.  Would also do wonders for the Leadville economy. Leadville should talk to Senator Salazar and Congressman Udall today....!
But back to the KC-767 and KC-777.  There are several nice things about the 767 beyond politics:  1) its basic production line is still running - very little new if any construction should be required - helping keep costs down whereas EADS is planning on building new ground-up facilities in the US for assembly.  2) You can afford more 767's than 30's or 777's - giving more coverage and perhaps availability (although at greater expense).  3) Hey, Boeing is just more experienced in aerial tankers... 4) The USAF hasn't asked for a KC-777,  4) The mix of 767 and 777 (if this is done later), makes more sense than a mix of 30's and 777 - you have 2 Boeing aircraft (one provider), and cover the ends of the spectrum better than having one aircraft in the middle. With the 767 they're perhaps more likely to also do the 777.  Then of course we could propose a KC-747/KC-380 competition...
 
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bropous       2/1/2007 2:47:35 PM
Excuse me, Diver, but the 10th Mountain Division makes more sense based at Leadville running over Independence Pass, then being sent to Afghanistan, than your comment would indicate.  Salazar and Udall are part of the problem in the US Congress, who are stabbing our troops in the backs on a daily basis while the men and women in uniform are fighting this war overseas.  They are both worthless bozos who couldn't define the end of the tube from which the round is ejected.
 
You're gonna tell me that training the 10th Mountain Division at Ft Drum makes more sense than training them on fourteeners and then sending them into the Hindu Kush?  It makes more sense to train a mountain division in the mountains if they are to be deployed in mountainous areas than in some hills just a couple of thousand feet above sea level because Chuckie Schumer or Hitlary can logroll support for their bill.
 
It makes my point: Military policy, such as weapons system selection and unit basing, are made for POLITICAL reasons rather than in consideration of MILITARY REQUIREMENTS.  The field requirements are the LAST consideration, and the fact that some weapons systems turn out to be fantastic is more a function of serendipity than of reasoned decision-making by the political prostitutes on Capitol Hill.
 
The 10th Mountain Division training at Ft Drum, NY, makes as much sense as training SEALs on the summit of Pikes Peak.
 
The air refueling tanker that is selected will make the cut not based upon its utility, but in whose political district the aircraft is manufactured (or maintained).  It is part and parcel of what is wrong with our procurement system, and our basing system.
 
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reefdiver       2/1/2007 11:21:02 PM

Excuse me, Diver, but the 10th Mountain Division makes more sense based at Leadville running over Independence Pass, then being sent to Afghanistan, than your comment would indicate.  Salazar and Udall are part of the problem in the US Congress, who are stabbing our troops in the backs on a daily basis while the men and women in uniform are fighting this war overseas.  They are both worthless bozos who couldn't define the end of the tube from which the round is ejected.
You're gonna tell me that training the 10th Mountain Division at Ft Drum makes more sense than training them on fourteeners and then sending them into the Hindu Kush?  It makes more sense to train a mountain division in the mountains if they are to be deployed in mountainous areas than in some hills just a couple of thousand feet above sea level because Chuckie Schumer or Hitlary can logroll support for their bill.

It makes my point: Military policy, such as weapons system selection and unit basing, are made for POLITICAL reasons rather than in consideration of MILITARY REQUIREMENTS.  The field requirements are the LAST consideration, and the fact that some weapons systems turn out to be fantastic is more a function of serendipity than of reasoned decision-making by the political prostitutes on Capitol Hill.
The 10th Mountain Division training at Ft Drum, NY, makes as much sense as training SEALs on the summit of Pikes Peak.
The air refueling tanker that is selected will make the cut not based upon its utility, but in whose political district the aircraft is manufactured (or maintained).  It is part and parcel of what is wrong with our procurement system, and our basing system.

   I couldn't agree with you more... I threw in Udall and Salazar as something of a joke - in keeping with the thought that it take a politician to make anything happen. Of course, as soon as someone proposed anything as radical as moving the 10th to the logical place like Colorado, some politician in Florida, realizing someone is about to steal them from New York anyway, would try to find a reason to move them to Florida - probably so they'd be available to scale the mountains in Cuba when Castro dies... He might even convince some generals they need to work on their tans. I consider "rational politician" as much an oxymoron as I consider "honest politician" to be an oxymoron.
As for the 777, yep - it makes a lot of sense. Then EADS would then of course propose the yet unbuilt KC-350... The airforce however seems to want more smaller tankers - the RFP appears to hold even the KC-30's size against it. The KC-767 is basically ready to go. I'm convinced they'll buy the KC-767 (unless McCain and the senator from Alabama have their way), build a bunch, then add some larger models - like the 777 or whatever. I think that will be a whole different RFP.
 
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Professor Fickle    no no, the 787   2/2/2007 12:00:22 AM

The KC 787 when it comes out will be the best plane!  It will have the identical space as our 767. Will be more expensive to buy, however the maintenance cost should be minimal.(nonexistent compeered to our aging kc-135) and its extremely efficient motors will burn a fraction of ou current costs!!!

 
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reefdiver       2/2/2007 12:09:14 PM


The KC 787 when it comes out will be the best plane!  It will have the identical space as our 767. Will be more expensive to buy, however the maintenance cost should be minimal.(nonexistent compeered to our aging kc-135) and its extremely efficient motors will burn a fraction of ou current costs!!!




Of course the KC-787 would be a great plane, and probably better than the KC-767 or KC-30. But lets be practical. Its production line is sold out for a decade or more, and you'd also be facing at least a several year development cycle.  I also bet Boeing would find it almost impossible to get a couple of them off the line for the tanker development.  The KC-767 is ready to go as its development cycle is pretty much complete. The production line is ready to go as commercial 767 orders have dried up so that the line can be dedicated to the 767.  So no new facilities cost, almost no more R&D costs, and a per-unit cost reduced by a over a couple of decades of production of the 767.  IIRC, Boeing has funded most of the development costs for the KC-767.  If the USAF now asked for a KC-787, or even a KC-777 for that matter, they, not Boeing would have to bear the development cost.  Give the taxpayers a break. An additional advantage not to be overlooked is that most problems with the basic aircraft have been detected and corrected - an ongoing process for all new aircraft. 
 
Nope, if the USAF had stepped in sooner and helped Boeing fund the 787 development, then it might have worked. But not now.
 
And hey - if the USAF used the 787, it would just lose it pilots to the commercial airlines faster....
 
 
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