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Kiowas Chased Off By Tigers

November 1, 2009: The Australian Army has retired its last seven U.S. made Kiowa scout helicopters to training duty, and replaced them with French made Tiger helicopter gunships.

The Kiowa is a militarized version of the Bell 206, called the OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. This one ton helicopter has a top speed of 226 kilometers per hour, and a range of 241 kilometers. It has a mast-mounted sight, which carries a powerful FLIR (heat sensing camera) and a laser designator. The OH-58D is lightly armed, and usually only carries four Hellfire (anti-vehicle) or Stinger (anti-aircraft) missiles, or 14 70mm unguided (or guided) rockets. Planned upgrades include new, and improved, electronics, but also the possibility of a much needed new engine. Over the decades, the new equipment has been added, without an increase in engine power. For a scout helicopter, the OH-58 was getting more sluggish as it got older. The U.S. is seeking a replacement for its OH-58s, which are base on 1960s era technology.

The six ton Tiger has a crew of two and a max speed of 280 kilometers an hour. It cruises at 230 kilometers an hour, usually stays in the air about three hours per sortie. It is armed with a 30mm automatic cannon, 70mm rocket pods (19 rockets per pod) and various types of air-to-ground missiles (eight Hellfire type missiles can be carried). It can also carry four Mistral anti-aircraft missiles.

Development of six ton Tiger began in 1987, before the Cold War ended, and only began entering service six years ago. The Tiger costs about as much as the older and heavier (at eight tons) AH-64 Apache (about $45 million each), and was developed to emulate the success of the Apache (which entered service in 1984). Some nations, like Australia, are using the Tiger as an armed scout helicopter, as their Kiowa scouts were usually unarmed.

France has bought 80 Tigers, Spain 24 and Australia 22.

 

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gf0012-aust       11/1/2009 8:31:35 AM
Some nations, like Australia, are using the Tiger as an armed scout helicopter, as their Kiowa scouts were usually unarmed.

not entirely correct.  the reason why they're called Armed Recon Helos is because it's politically incorrect to call them gunships.  - they also would have struggled to get over the procurement line if the army had called them gunships.

sad but true.  political correctness gone mad just to make sure we can buy gear without political obstruction
 
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aPackOfWankers       11/1/2009 10:16:57 PM
Looks like the OH-58D flies at a max 555km at a max 241kmh, carrying around 700kg payload, while the Tiger flies a max 800km at a max 290kmh carrying a 3000kg payload.
 
Its not a scout helicopter. Its far more similar to the Apache than it is to the Kiowa.
 
link
  • Maximum speed: 241 km/h
  • Range: 555 km
  • Empty weight: 1,737 kg
  • Max takeoff weight: 2,495 kg

link

  • Maximum speed: 290 km/h with mast, 315 km/h without mast
  • Range: 800 km combat (with external tanks in the inboard stations: 1300km)
  • Empty weight: 3,060 kg
  • Max takeoff weight: 6,000 kg 
link
Maximum speed: 293 km/h
Combat radius: 480 km
Empty weight: 5,165 kg
Loaded weight: 8,000 kg
 
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brizzydude       11/1/2009 11:17:50 PM
Don't be cynical!
I'm sure the Japanese might put some of these 'scout helicopters' on their new 'destroyer'.....
With the current state of PC, always remember.  Where there is a will there is a way.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       11/2/2009 2:35:51 AM
Just a point of clarification, the Australian Army operates OH-58As with the Mark 1 eyeball as its sole sensor and with no armament other than personal weapons, rather than the OH-58D with its electronic gizmos and advanced weaponary as suggested in the SP article at the beginning of this thread.
 
Quote    Reply

Aussie Diggermark 2       11/2/2009 8:38:10 PM

Some nations, like Australia, are using the Tiger as an armed scout helicopter, as their Kiowa scouts were usually unarmed.


not entirely correct.  the reason why they're called Armed Recon Helos is because it's politically incorrect to call them gunships.  - they also would have struggled to get over the procurement line if the army had called them gunships.


sad but true.  political correctness gone mad just to make sure we can buy gear without political obstruction



I know. I've seen this SO many times, Army anxiously pushing the line that it's primarily for "recon", terrified that someone might realise those Hellfires, 70mm rockets and 30mm chain gun are designed to actually kill people and blow things up...
 
As to the Kiowa's being unarmed, that is only somewhat true. Trials were conducted with a light fire support role made possible by including snipers and M-79 wombat gun equipped troops in the back...
 
 
 

 
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reefdiver       11/10/2009 9:04:27 AM
So, if the Tiger has the appropriate sensors to cover the recon role, would you rather have more attack Tigers or more (slower) recon OH-58's?  Of course $45 million or so for a Tiger versus $8-$10 million for a Kiowa does then mean fewer Tigers vs Kiowa as well. 
 
So I'm curious if you feel its worth replacing recons with fewer Tigers (i.e. fewer "eyes" on the enemy)?
 
 
Quote    Reply

Aussie Diggermark 2       11/11/2009 6:50:57 AM

So, if the Tiger has the appropriate sensors to cover the recon role, would you rather have more attack Tigers or more (slower) recon OH-58's?  Of course $45 million or so for a Tiger versus $8-$10 million for a Kiowa does then mean fewer Tigers vs Kiowa as well. 

 

So I'm curious if you feel its worth replacing recons with fewer Tigers (i.e. fewer "eyes" on the enemy)?

 


Our Kiowa's were NOT OH-58D Warriors.
 
They were unarmed, non-sensor equipped Bell Kiowa helos. They were not even militarised, other than being painted green. They were equipped with no recon equipment whatsoever and indeed the only ability to locate anything, rested with whatever the pilot or co-pilot could physically see.
 
They were completely useless in any threat environment whatsoever, so from that POV, I'd take the Tigers any day of the week and so would Army.
 
IF we had ever upgraded our Kiowa's to the Kiowa Warrior standard, that would have been a more difficult question, but we did not.
 
On top of which, we only had a fleet of 26x Kiowas and they had to perform a light recon role AND a pilot training role, whereas we have ordered 22x Tigers, which are entirely dedicated to armed reconaissance work...
 
 
A much more satisfactory situation... 
 
 
Quote    Reply

reefdiver       11/11/2009 10:17:39 AM



Our Kiowa's were NOT OH-58D Warriors.
They were unarmed, non-sensor equipped Bell Kiowa helos. They were not even militarised, other than being painted green. They were equipped with no recon equipment whatsoever and indeed the only ability to locate anything, rested with whatever the pilot or co-pilot could physically see.

They were completely useless in any threat environment whatsoever, so from that POV, I'd take the Tigers any day of the week and so would Army. 

IF we had ever upgraded our Kiowa's to the Kiowa Warrior standard, that would have been a more difficult question, but we did not. 
On top of which, we only had a fleet of 26x Kiowas and they had to perform a light recon role AND a pilot training role, whereas we have ordered 22x Tigers, which are entirely dedicated to armed reconaissance work...

A much more satisfactory situation...  

That being said (i.e. these Tigers are for recon), were you making the decision would you trade 2 or 3 of the Tigers for 8 to 12 new OH-58D's or would you prefer the smaller number of more heavily armed Tiger?
 
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Aussiegunneragain       11/14/2009 4:37:43 AM

That being said (i.e. these Tigers are for recon), were you making the decision would you trade 2 or 3 of the Tigers for 8 to 12 new OH-58D's or would you prefer the smaller number of more heavily armed Tiger?
We have UAV's now to do the recon tasks of the Kiowa and the Tigers do the fire support task much better than Warriors could. The only operational use for them now is liason and we can take some from the training squadron for that if we need to.  

 
Quote    Reply

reefdiver       11/14/2009 8:36:43 AM



That being said (i.e. these Tigers are for recon), were you making the decision would you trade 2 or 3 of the Tigers for 8 to 12 new OH-58D's or would you prefer the smaller number of more heavily armed Tiger?


We have UAV's now to do the recon tasks of the Kiowa and the Tigers do the fire support task much better than Warriors could. The only operational use for them now is liason and we can take some from the training squadron for that if we need to.  




Thats an interesting observation and perhaps raises some questions about the US's ARH program. Perhaps the US Army would be better off buying  UAV's and AH-64's as well?
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       11/14/2009 2:34:24 PM
The only operational use for them now is liason and we can take some from the training squadron for that if we need to.  

Most of the utility roles (which includes liaison and some training) are being picked up by the blackhawks and augusta 109's.  both types double duty on training. The remaining kiowas are basically pensioners, although they will have some training/support duty with 173 at Holsworthy and as they transfer to Oakey.
as a sidebar UK SAS are also using their augustas/westies for the liaison/utility role.


 
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Aussiegunneragain       11/14/2009 7:19:07 PM

The only operational use for them now is liason and we can take some from the training squadron for that if we need to.  



Most of the utility roles (which includes liaison and some training) are being picked up by the blackhawks and augusta 109's.  both types double duty on training. The remaining kiowas are basically pensioners, although they will have some training/support duty with 173 at Holsworthy and as they transfer to Oakey.

as a sidebar UK SAS are also using their augustas/westies for the liaison/utility role.

Interesting, though I thought the Augusta's were for navy multi-engine training. Are they doing Army basic flight training on them as well?

 
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